A point on wearing plate armor

[Michcat]

... watching the video, and he looks like he is having a REALLY difficult time... like he really can't swim... like its not working

Like he couldn't keep his head above the water at ALL, he couldn't frontstroke, he couldn't float on his back- the people even say "You couldn't go very far!". Even when he "Swam" (For a full ten feet, wow!) his head never broke the surface and he looked like the sort of person my Lifeguard training tells me I need to rescue.

This only serves to prove to me that you cannot swim in plate armour, especially full plate (And that guy wasn't in full plate).

Edit: I doublechecked.. Yeah, he wasn't in full plate. He was in 3/4 plate.

 

[Michcat]

I think I need to repeat;

THIS IS THE SORT OF ACTIVITY SOMEONE EXHIBITS WHEN THEY ARE DROWNING. I got a neat lil' badge that certifies me to lifeguard on beaches and piers in the local county (California coast) and part of passing the entire bootcamp was recognizing this stuff (Not only swimming out into the ocean for three miles, grabbing the instructor twice your size, and getting them back unjostled...)

he's not swimming, he's pushing off the bottom of the pool hard enough to 'float' in the armour and flail about for ten whole feet before he touches the bottom of the pool.

Verdict?
You can't swim in armour.

 

[DraconDarknight]

... watching the video, and he looks like he is having a REALLY difficult time... like he really can't swim... like its not working

Like he couldn't keep his head above the water at ALL, he couldn't frontstroke, he couldn't float on his back- the people even say "You couldn't go very far!". Even when he "Swam" (For a full ten feet, wow!) his head never broke the surface and he looked like the sort of person my Lifeguard training tells me I need to rescue.

This only serves to prove to me that you cannot swim in plate armour, especially full plate (And that guy wasn't in full plate).

This guy was wearing plate armor for the first time in his life and had no prior training in wearing it.
Knights actually trained a lot with their plate armor, like running making push-ups and passing hindrance courses.
He even said that 'if you got the strength and training to wear it its feasible'.

 

[Michcat]

This guy was wearing plate armor for the first time in his life and had no prior training in wearing it.
Knights actually trained a lot with their plate armor, like running making push-ups and passing hindrance courses.

Did they find time to train in swimming, too? You don't just "know" how to swim. Tons of people- adult people- don't know how to swim, and this is in modern times where you can easily travel to a lake or beach or channel.

But lets ignore that. So you're saying that training in plate armour makes the weight of the armour miraculously vanish, and that they can also miraculously gain the buoyancy required to keep that much weight condensed into a humanoid frame afloat? If you've discovered a method to achieve that, I think you should submit it to some rich people really quickly, because you could make a ton of money

 

[Naelwyn]

Now you're trying to counter-argue based on a video you purported supported a claim.

The first thing you should actually do is disavow the video (Which clearly looks like floundering to me) and see if you can provide a much more substantial bit of evidence - to me it looked like the fellow was drowning - and find a video with a bedonned person traveling a substantial difference.

Speaking from my own experience, imagining what a gambeson - disregard the metal, a gambeson (Usually wool - Imagine a giant wool sweater) would weigh when immersed in water makes me disinclined to believe anything more than "Desperate floundering to get to something they can stand or rest on" at the most extreme, which does not well describe swimming.

 

[DraconDarknight]

But do they train underwater? No.

There is a huge difference between moving around in/on; the ground, underwater, in zero-G, falling through the air.
Movement in all four situations is entirely different. Being trained in one does not prepare you for the three others.

The point is whether you can swim in it or not though. By merely wearing it you gain strength in both arms and legs, a principle that is still used today when people add weights around their wrists and ankles.
I never deny that it looks exhausting, my point is it is possible.

Now you're trying to counter-argue based on a video you purported supported a claim.

The first thing you should actually do is disavow the video (Which clearly looks like floundering to me) and see if you can provide a much more substantial bit of evidence - to me it looked like the fellow was drowning - and find a video with a bedonned person traveling a substantial difference.

Sadly the only video I could find on the topic, the people even say 'probably not done for at least 400 years'.
The guy himself basically admitted that he didn't have the strength to do it.
TbH it kinda makes me want to send it to the myth busters, but none of them really looks like they could do it either :/

 

[Michcat]

The point is whether you can swim in it or not though. By merely wearing it you gain strength in both arms and legs, a principle that is still used today when people add weights around their wrists and ankles.
I never deny that it looks exhausting, my point is it is possible.



Sadly the only video I could find on the topic, the people even say 'probably not done for at least 400 years'.
The guy himself basically admitted that he didn't have the strength to do it.
TbH it kinda makes me want to send it to the myth busters, but none of them really looks like they could do it either :/

My point is that if it is possible, it would be not for very long at all. This is kinda proved by the video..

I also ask;

But lets ignore that. So you're saying that training in plate armour makes the weight of the armour miraculously vanish, and that they can also miraculously gain the buoyancy required to keep that much weight condensed into a humanoid frame afloat? If you've discovered a method to achieve that, I think you should submit it to some rich people really quickly, because you could make a ton of money

 

[Tybalt]

This guy was wearing plate armor for the first time in his life and had no prior training in wearing it.
Knights actually trained a lot with their plate armor, like running making push-ups and passing hindrance courses.
He even said that 'if you got the strength and training to wear it its feasible'.

Nowhere in any great kingdoms training reigning was their a "swim in your plate armor day"

To say its achievable by training, would be like flying is achievable if you flap your arms enough

 

[DraconDarknight]

A video showing a guy with a huge amount of assistance in a situation in which he knows he will most likely not drown and still panicking doesn't help your point. And considering the extra variables in a real scenario just proves further that, while technically possible, the guy would still most likely drown in the situation.

A guy who never wore plate armor in his entire life, who was obviously underestimating the drag.

I'm also talking deliberate swimming from A to B here and not falling off a bridge.

But lets ignore that. So you're saying that training in plate armour makes the weight of the armour miraculously vanish, and that they can also miraculously gain the buoyancy required to keep that much weight condensed into a humanoid frame afloat?

Nah not vanishing - wearing it alone strengthens your muscles to a certain degree though.
Like weighted bands for jogging. Admittedly a lot different from having them all over your body but the principle is the same.

I don't even deny that it would be extremely exhausting.
A thing that should also not be forgotten is strength you gain from an adrenaline rush if you really need to swim in it.

Might be interesting to see a soldier who previously swam with their packs (though I think they don't have them on their backs when they do), since said packs are a lot heavier than plate armor.
So yeah maybe really worth a mail to the myth busters...

Nowhere in any great kingdoms training reigning was their a "swim in your plate armor day"

To say its achievable by training, would be like flying is achievable if you flap your arms enough

That comparison is utterly silly, sorry.
The guys 3rd try showed that he could move in the water, even though not very far, while you can flap your arms the entire day and won't lift off even a single millimeter, no matter how strong you are.

 

[DraconDarknight]

The comparison is fair, actually.

I'd agree with you if you could show me a person who manages to lift off just by flapping their arms.

 

[DraconDarknight]

I would agree with you if you could show me a person who could actually swim in a full suit of armour through a lake without assistance from two other people and an oxygen tank for more than what that guy showed.

in his third attempt he swam (according to his own statement) around 10 feet. And neither of the two were actually supporting him there they were there in case he needed it but didn't touch him.

Point is a medieval knight would still be stronger than him - which he basically admitted.

There is a video on youtube of Japanese swimmers trying it in samurai armor btw, which is about the only other swimming in armor video I could find.

Oh and since you started talking gravity...
Actually its similar to raising the gravity in your environment just so that it is barely noticeable. Even though you barely notice it your muscles will evolve faster than in a normal 1g environment. So depending on how much you actually feel 0.26 g difference a walk on Oberon would help your training a lot more than doing the same exercise on earth.

 

[Tybalt]

Well, you heard of maximum velocity right? That 10 feet is probally his maximum swimming distance without drowning.

Armor has padding under it, which will swell with water adding additional weight.

Armor weighs around what? 20,40 lbs?

Strap a 30 pound weight on your back and try to go swim (please don't you will die)

 

[Gregor]

I know for sure that Roman soldiers were able to swim in their armour, and were trained to do so.

But I am unsure if knights were trained to do so, and if gambeson+chainmail+plate would be sustainable to swim in.

 

[Tybalt]

I know for sure that Roman soldiers were able to swim in their armour, and were trained to do so.

But I am unsure if knights were trained to do so, and if gambeson+chainmail+plate would be sustainable to swim in.

Roman armor was much more lighter and loosefit/freemoving

 

[DraconDarknight]

Well, you heard of maximum velocity right? That 10 feet is probally his maximum swimming distance without drowning.

Armor has padding under it, which will swell with water adding additional weight.

Armor weighs around what? 20,40 lbs?

Strap a 30 pound weight on your back and try to go swim (please don't you will die)

Actualyl 30 punds is just 13 kg, is a bit less 3 Steyr AUG 77, and I can assure you that you can swim with at least one or two.

I think, theoretically you only need to get enough displacement during speed bursts.

Nowhere in any great kingdoms training reigning was their a "swim in your plate armor day"

I know for sure that Roman soldiers were able to swim in their armor, and were trained to do so.

But I am unsure if knights were trained to do so, and if gambeson+chainmail+plate would be sustainable to swim in.

If I remember it right my argument back then was that my char does it for training in the first place.
But yes the materials you wear below the armor are a huge factor too. Wool for example would get soaked and conseqently extremely heavy.

 

[Michcat]

My point remains the same. You do not have two guys assisting you with an oxygen tank and holding you up.
Part of my deleted argument was that a person in full plate would also be panicking under the water, while the guy in this video was more in control of what he was doing (granted still panicking according to Mich).

He probably wasn't panicking, but he did look like he was drowning - all that thrashing and trying (failing) to stay afloat.

@DraconDarknight
So you're saying if I build up a lot of muscle I can negate the metal full plate armour, woolen water-weighted armour padding, and somehow keep myself afloat in the water? That if I am strong enough I can literally force the laws of physics and water dynamics to bend to my will?

'cause you really need to submit that to a board of researchers!

in his third attempt he swam (according to his own statement) around 10 feet. And neither of the two were actually supporting him there they were there in case he needed it but didn't touch him.

Point is a medieval knight would still be stronger than him - which he basically admitted.

please see again the assessment of "he looks like he is drowning"

 

[Michcat]

I think the most interesting claim in this thread is that stronger pecs allow you to bend the laws of buoyancy..

 

[Naelwyn]

He probably wasn't panicking, but he did look like he was drowning - all that thrashing and trying (failing) to stay afloat.

@DraconDarknight
So you're saying if I build up a lot of muscle I can negate the metal full plate armour, woolen water-weighted armour padding, and somehow keep myself afloat in the water? That if I am strong enough I can literally force the laws of physics and water dynamics to bend to my will?

'cause you really need to submit that to a board of researchers!



please see again the assessment of "he looks like he is drowning"

You see, if you are hot blooded enough, you can build up a layer of boiling water, giving you a viscous barrier against surface tension and allow you to cut right to the bottom of the body of water and walk back. That's pec-power.


In fact, in most situations I would recommend sinking and attempting to walk up a slope if present.

 

[Michcat]

To sum up;

Medieval knights in armour + Swimming =

 

[DraconDarknight]

You see, if you are hot blooded enough, you can build up a layer of boiling water, giving you a viscous barrier against surface tension and allow you to cut right to the bottom of the body of water and walk back. That's pec-power.

makes my char the perfect candidate.

He probably wasn't panicking, but he did look like he was drowning - all that thrashing and trying (failing) to stay afloat.

@DraconDarknight
So you're saying if I build up a lot of muscle I can negate the metal full plate armour, woolen water-weighted armour padding, and somehow keep myself afloat in the water? That if I am strong enough I can literally force the laws of physics and water dynamics to bend to my will?

'cause you really need to submit that to a board of researchers!

Thats not what I was saying.
The point of mentioning the wool was that it add to the weight, thus not having it in the first place will reduce the burden a bit. We are also not talking about complete negation here.


A bit better example of armor swimming (also the only other one I could find), although the armor, at least looks, lighter. (Don't quote me on it being lighter though)

Note what his father/trainer says between 0:50 - 1:10

According to some claims I found throughout the internet a full Samurai armor weights between 50 and 55 lbs (again I can't confirm it) while medieval armor ranges from 50 to 60 lbs