Medieval & Fantasy Minecraft Roleplaying

Greetings Explorer, Navigate into the Lobby!

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Be sure to "Get Whitelisted" to join the community on server!

Alignment issues

Michcat

i'm the wench if you're the cake ;)
Actually, Picard being on Lawful neutral is wrong since he broke the prime directive on several occasions because it was the right thing to do (Insurrection for example), so its more Lawful good ;).

That being said - Batman is moe lawful good than Superman too :p
Well of course its not completely accurate xD
But it does give some good insight into alignments, yes?
 

Sankera

Lord of Altera
In-Game Tech Staff
Lore Staff
Merchant
Staff
Pronouns
He/Him, They/Them
Sea_of_Fog
Sea_of_Fog
LegendMerchant
;):p Hah batman, he cool, more then soupman
 

Sankera

Lord of Altera
In-Game Tech Staff
Lore Staff
Merchant
Staff
Pronouns
He/Him, They/Them
Sea_of_Fog
Sea_of_Fog
LegendMerchant
Enjoy the new world of alingments called:

- Social and Rebel
- Moral and Impure



 
Last edited:

Sankera

Lord of Altera
In-Game Tech Staff
Lore Staff
Merchant
Staff
Pronouns
He/Him, They/Them
Sea_of_Fog
Sea_of_Fog
LegendMerchant
game_of_thrones___alignment_chart_by_orosens-d6it7kf.jpg

Everybody loves gifs
tumblr_lnwsqy9sSu1qepmmto1_500.gif
 

Gaby

Lord of Altera
hey this thing that was a link from the link blarg posted makes some points about alignment:
http://easydamus.com/alignmentreal.html

its a hard read so im gonna go through and quote:
The names of the alignments themselves seem to indicate that the alignments are viewed from the lawful good point of view. Being called "lawful" seems to be better than being called "chaotic" while "good" is vastly better than the pejorative term "evil." But do chaotics really see themselves as unpredictable, impulsive and perhaps a little bit dangerous? Or do they see themselves as independent, free-thinking, and unfettered by the unnecessary restrictions of society? Likewise, evil characters are more likely to see themselves as determined, self-reliant, and steadfast in their beliefs rather than seeing themselves as ruthless, cruel, or selfish. In essence, no character ever believes that their particular world-view and values system is inferior or wrong, otherwise why would they adhere to it?

This being said, it might be important to take a look at the proposed qualities that members of each alignment believe themselves to possess.
Screen shot 2014-09-16 at 4.51.21 PM.png
With this we note that lawful good sees itself as honorable and humane. Its diametric opposite, chaotic evil, views itself as independent and determined. Independence and determination are certainly desirable qualities. Chaotic good is independent and humane. Once again, these two qualities can be seen as desirable. Lawful evil sees itself as honorable and determined. This is a very desirable combination when someone needs to be trusted and use every means to get the job done, right?
To lay the foundation for this construct, we turn to concepts developed by Shalom Schwartz concerning universals in value systems. (1) Schwartz theorizes that there are ten motivations that act as guides for action in life. These motivations are universal, meaning that they've been empirically determined to exist across all of the world's cultures. These ten motivations are: self-direction, stimulation, hedonism, achievement, power, security, conformity, tradition, benevolence, and universalism. Each of the ten basic values can be characterized by describing its central motivational goal and its associated single values. (2)
Self-Direction - Independent thought and action; choosing, creating, exploring. Associated single values are: freedom, creativity, independence, choosing one's own goals, being curious, having self-respect.

Stimulation - Excitement, novelty, and challenge in life. Associate single values are: having an exciting and varied life, being daring.

Hedonism - Pleasure and sensuous gratification for oneself. Associated single values are: experiencing pleasure and enjoying life.

Achievement - Personal success through demonstrating competence according to social standards. Associated single values are: being ambitious, influential, capable, successful, intelligence, and having self-respect.

Power - Social status and prestige, control or dominance over people and resources. Associate single values are: having social power, wealth, and authority, preserving one's own public image, and having social recognition.

Security - Safety, harmony, and stability of society, of relationships, and of self. Associate single values are: ensuring national security, reciprocation of favors, ensuring family security, having a sense of belonging, preserving the social order, being healthy and clean.

Conformity - Restraint of actions, inclinations, and impulses likely to upset or harm others and violate social expectations or norms. Associated single values are: being obedient, having self-discipline, being polite, honoring parents and elders.

Tradition - Respect, commitment, and acceptance of the customs and ideas that traditional culture or religion provide the self. Associated single values are: respecting tradition, being devout, accepting one's own portion in life, being humble, and taking life in moderation.

Benevolence - Preserving and enhancing the welfare of those with whom one is in frequent personal contact (the "in-group"). Associated single values are: being helpful, responsible, forgiving, honest loyal, and having mature love for others and true friendships.

Universalism - Understanding, appreciation, tolerance, and protection for the welfare of all people and for nature. Associated single values are: advancing equality, being one with nature, having wisdom, filling the world with beauty, advancing social justice, being broad-minded, protecting the environment, and see the world at peace.
These ten motivations also show patterns of compatibility and conflict. The following compatibilities have been noted.

Power and Achievement - both emphasize social superiority and esteem.

Achievement and Hedonism - both are concerned with self-indulgence and self-centeredness.

Hedonism and Stimulation - both entail a desire for affectively pleasant arousal.

Stimulation and Self-Direction - both involve intrinsic motivation for mastery and openness for change.

Self-Direction and Universalism - both express reliance on one's own judgment and comfort with the diversity of existence.

Universalism and Benevolence - both are concerned with enhancement of others and transcendence of selfish interests.

Benevolence and Tradition/Conformity - both promote devotion to one's in-group.

Tradition and Conformity - both stress self-restraint and submission. These two are combined by Schwartz in later versions of the theory.

Tradition/Conformity and Security - both emphasize conservation of order and harmony in relations.

Security and Power - both stress avoiding or overcoming the threat of uncertainties by controlling relationships and resources.

The following conflicts occur.

Self-Direction and Stimulation versus Conformity, Tradition, and Security
- This dimension reflects a conflict between emphases on own independent thought and action and favoring change versus submissive self-restriction, preservation of traditional practices, and protection of stability.

Universalism and Benevolence versus Achievement and Power - This dimension reflects a conflict between acceptance of others as equals and concern for their welfare versus pursuit of one's own relative success and dominance over others.

Given these compatibilities and conflicts, these ten primary motivations seem to suggest a circular continuum of values. A graphic representing this is shown below.
Screen shot 2014-09-16 at 4.54.02 PM.png

It seems clear that the D&D alignment chart can be placed over this "real-world" analysis of the various value systems like so:


The various alignments have as their primary motivations the following values:

Lawful Good - Conformity/Tradition and Benevolence

Neutral Good - Benevolence and Universalism

Chaotic Good - Universalism and Self-Direction

Chaotic Neutral - Self-Direction and Stimulation

Chaotic Evil - Hedonism

Neutral Evil - Achievement and Power

Lawful Evil - Power and Security

Lawful Neutral - Security and Conformity/Tradition

True Neutral - Any values, whether incongruent or not, can serve as motivations for True Neutrals. True Neutrality can indicate no strong preference for a set of motivations (i.e., most motivations are of equal strength) or a tendency to be motivated by values that are normally incongruent (such as Benevolence and Power or Security and Self-Direction).
It should be noted that although the primary motivations are likely to be those listed above, they are not necessarily the only motivations. The motivations for a character become less likely the further they are from the character's alignment. For example, a lawful good character could be motivated by Universalism or Security (as well as Tradition/Conformity and Benevolence) but these motivations are less likely. It is very unlikely that this character would be motivated by Power or Self-Direction and extremely unlikely that they would be motivated by Achievement, Hedonism, or Stimulation.

And it must be said that although this overlay shows that the "evil" alignments are motivated by Security, Power, Achievement, and Hedonism, in real life, these motivations do not necessarily produce "evil" individuals in the D&D sense. In fact, many people are certainly motivated to provide for their own Security and increase their own Power within society; these pursuits do not make them lawful evil (like a D&D villain). This is why it is important to change the terminology for naming the alignments if all alignments are to become playable.
New Names for Old Alignments
As stated previously, the old alignment names just won't do anymore. A pleasure-loving thrill-seeker cannot be called "chaotic evil." There's just too much baggage associated with that description and it really doesn't apply. I suggest the following one-word names for the new "positive" alignments.

Righteous (Lawful Good) - Conformity/Tradition and Benevolence

Humane (Neutral Good) - Benevolence and Universalism

Transcendent (Chaotic Good) - Universalism and Self-Direction

Autonomous (Chaotic Neutral) - Self-Direction and Stimulation

Sybaritic (Chaotic Evil) - Hedonism

Ambitious (Neutral Evil) - Achievement and Power

Ascendent (Lawful Evil) - Power and Security

Orthodox (Lawful Neutral) - Security and Conformity/Tradition

Pragmatic (True Neutral) - (any values)

These names, of course, are arbitrary. Gaming groups could decide to adopt similar terms that suit their particular view of the alignment system. The purpose is to remove the traditional alignment names so that characters of all alignments can be played. These new alignments could also be seen as paths followed by characters. In this case, suggested path names are listed.

Path of Integrity (Lawful Good) - Conformity/Tradition and Benevolence

Path of Mercy (Neutral Good) - Benevolence and Universalism

Path of Liberty (Chaotic Good) - Universalism and Self-Direction

Path of Autonomy (Chaotic Neutral) - Self-Direction and Stimulation

Path of Luxury (Chaotic Evil) - Hedonism

Path of Supremacy (Neutral Evil) - Achievement and Power

Path of Ascendency (Lawful Evil) - Power and Security

Path of Harmony (Lawful Neutral) - Security and Conformity/Tradition

Path of Equity (True Neutral) - (any values)

don't know about you but I'm going to use this.
 

Gaby

Lord of Altera
anyways I decide Im gonna reclassify based on the new alignment because I am so down for it!

Salheira Rain-River is between Righteous and Humane.
Dahlia Frost-Rose is Pragmatic
Viktor Sylvain is Sybaritic
Vantash is Transcendent

if you want to do the same, I would suggest doing it in a new thread, because i can see the flood taking over this one right now
 

Gaby

Lord of Altera
but I understand it.

if you like, I could simplify it. I was thinking of doing so anyways.
I mean the psychology jargon really messes with people but honestly it just goes back around to a simple renaming of the alignments.
 

Somnastra

Puppycat Herder
Events Staff
Lore Staff
Good
Staff
Retired Owner
Somnastra
Somnastra
Good
but I understand it.

if you like, I could simplify it. I was thinking of doing so anyways.
I mean the psychology jargon really messes with people but honestly it just goes back around to a simple renaming of the alignments.
The thing people forget, I think, is that alignment != personality.
 

dUMMY

Dead Man Walking
Dummyplug
Dummyplug
Dummy's goals are essentially "good". But he'll do any and all kinds of evil things to everyone to achieve it. He is "nice" but it is usually only because he sees it as more beneficial than blowing people off or being mean. He is essentially self serving.
 

Somnastra

Puppycat Herder
Events Staff
Lore Staff
Good
Staff
Retired Owner
Somnastra
Somnastra
Good
Dummy's goals are essentially "good". But he'll do any and all kinds of evil things to everyone to achieve it. He is "nice" but it is usually only because he sees it as more beneficial than blowing people off or being mean. He is essentially self serving.
Both Kelta and Som are neutral. But Som's neutral because she's all about balance (that's her "good," if you will). Kelta's just selfish.

But the alignment system works to describe that.
 

aidoninja

Lord of Altera
Legend
aidenninja
aidenninja
Legend
Dummy's goals are essentially "good". But he'll do any and all kinds of evil things to everyone to achieve it. He is "nice" but it is usually only because he sees it as more beneficial than blowing people off or being mean. He is essentially self serving.
If only super noodles were self serving, they should come to me not the other way around XD
 
Top