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[Draft] Consent Reform

Lannis

You've yeed your last haw
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Note: This is not in effect. It's up for discussion, and may be implemented if well reviewed.

Alrightey. I've noticed the implementation of consent to be a polarizing issue lately, with folks getting salty one way or the other when it's brought up. I have some proposed changes to it that I'd like to open discussion on, as a potential replacement to the bulk of the present system. This applies mostly to moderate regions; doesn't much matter in violent regions where consent is assumed, nor really peaceful regions where consent is assumed in the negative.

Essentially, it's a paradigm shift in the system to treat temporary and permanent character outcomes differently; actions that significantly/permanently/semi-permanently affect a character's playstyle or ability to be played (such as character death, maiming, or serious impairment) generally require consent, whereas actions with transient consequence generally do not. The notion here is to distance the consent system from conditions that do not seriously affect a player's ability to roleplay in meaningful manner. Players are encouraged to discuss any outcome amongst themselves, though it won't necessarily be protected by consent.

The bulk of the actual reform comes as a set of conditions for consent as it may be met in roleplay; different situations entail varying levels of consent, and so forth.

Consent Rules:
  • The ideal consent-based exchange is to have both parties discuss what they're comfortable with/where they'd like the violence to go as early as possible in a fight or other potentially violent encounter. Any agreement made in this manner overrules any other conditional consent levels. Neither has any obligation to go further than what their counterpart agrees to, and any players entering the fight are bound to the level of consent that has been established. Should newcomers wish to escalate the level of violence, it's done selectively with any that wish to participate in that higher level.
    • Aggressor's consent: A spontaneously aggressive party, without prior communication, may not kill or permanently maim their target without explicit consent or pre-existing circumstance that would remove the need for consent. However, if the aggressor is attacking in an eminently lethal manner (i.e. attacking with a weapon), the aggressor automatically consents to wherever the combat RP leads, including death or permanent maiming.
    • Defender's consent: A party spontaneously attacked by an aggressor can be subject to nonlethal violence, and do not automatically consent to more severe violence by whatever means they employ to protect themselves. However, their assumed level of consent changes should they escalate it, such as by killing an attacker or counterattacking in a lethal manner that would immediately incapacitate the aggressor should he not defend. To clarify, the defending party can do whatever they must to keep themselves free of harm, including injury to the attacker. It's only considered to have escalated if they land an attack that summarily results in the death of the aggressor, or make an attack that would immediately kill the aggressor should they not defend against it.
  • "Castle Law;" Characters unlawfully in the residence of another character automatically consent to violence and death if given express warning by the resident, either ICly or OOCly, and are afforded appropriate chance to respond. The homeowners assume a level of consent equal to what they establish. This can be escalated or deescalated by discussion, as expressed in the first point.
  • Characters actively stealing or otherwise jeopardizing the property of another automatically consent to some flavor of violence, within reason; petty theft may be worth a beating, whereas significant property damage/loss may incur more severe consequence. This gets subjective with all the various degrees of larceny, and as such I heavily advise any attempts at theft be first discussed with the intended target to determine and agree upon the severity of their reaction.
  • Characters that intentionally put another character in a position of harm without directly doing harm themselves automatically consent to whatever violence is necessary for the victim to escape from their circumstance. The offending character may also be held responsible for any harm incurred by the victim as a consequence of his actions, and automatically matches any level of consent that is realized. For example, should Character A sell B to some slavers who nearly murder him, B is then entitled to nearly murder A.
  • Turnabout is fair play. Any action taken against a character is automatically grounds for consequence on the same level of violence by the character or those acting on the character's behalf (both ICly and OOCly). Established conspiracy for action against a character is also grounds for reciprocating the action should the conspiracy be reasonably serious; should it be in motion and not just an idle hypothetical. This also means that a character menacingly approaching another with a knife while saying something to the effect of "I'm going to shank you" may assume a preemptive retaliatory shanking to be in order.
  • For any local laws where the punishment would otherwise require serious consent, such as removing a thief's hand, the perpetrator is only automatically culpable for crimes committed within the territory holding the law. It is their responsibility to know law and order in the town where they decide to break it, but they are not subject to it if they committed crimes elsewhere. Consent may be obtained for such, but is not inherent. However, punishment arriving as equivalent consequence for actions taken by the character assumes the "turnabout" rule in establishing consent.

Levels of Consent:
By increasing severity:
  • Nonviolent: Baseline RP, no combat. No consent involved.
  • Nonlethal: Fighting with low chance of causing serious injury, such as a fistfight. Does not automatically consent the aggressor to more severe violence/death, unless it escalates to the point of preventing the victim from adequately defending himself further (unconsciousness, etc.).
  • Potentially lethal: Fighting with a high chance of causing serious injury or death, such as with a drawn weapon. Whoever initiates action in this manner (actively swinging a sword, not just drawing it) automatically consents to violence up to death, unless its inclusion was previously agreed upon.
  • Lethal: Actively trying to kill a character. Requires consent, unless consent otherwise voided.
  • Permanent maiming: Anything that irrevocably impairs the physical function of a character, such as loss of limb. Almost always requires explicit consent separate to any automatic consent, unless there's strong precedent for the character to receive such.

tl;dr
read the damn thing.
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
Just be prepared to add to this for all the varied hypoth- oh some have already been posted.

Beaten in by like 5 minutes.
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
This is an excellent standardization of some things I mostly assumed were standard. Let me throw one of the more complicated conditionals up in here for rule perusal, because they've happened before.

False Flag Operations
 

Raykaystar

Lord of Altera
No offence to everyone but I've noticed sometimes that consent can become an confusing argument between the people involved. My option is that consent should stay but here's the thing. If we all just be nice and respect what others want we should be fine! It doesn't really have to go into extreme detail. If someone wants to kill your character, sometimes it may be best to let them or vice versa.
 

Centurion

Dark Council Elite
No offence to everyone but I've noticed sometimes that consent can become an confusing argument between the people involved. My option is that consent should stay but here's the thing. If we all just be nice and respect what others want we should be fine! It doesn't really have to go into extreme detail. If someone wants to kill your character, sometimes it may be best to let them or vice versa.
No
 

TheDeester

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I can't tell if this is trolling or not, but I agree with Raykay's point. Shouldn't be a huge argument-fest just to get what you want, you've gotta be willing to give that to others, in turn.
 

CyberChaosV2

Lord of Altera
I can't tell if this is trolling or not, but I agree with Raykay's point. Shouldn't be a huge argument-fest just to get what you want, you've gotta be willing to give that to others, in turn.
true, but the argument starts when you don't think it's right that it should happen, example: I have Roy go to crossroads, argument starts up near him, he tries to move to get away from it, accidentally bumps one guy into another, due to having a bit much to drink and not being the lightest on his feet. This causes fight to escalate and guy he bumped into sees Roy and, thinking he was attacking him in the first place, manages to get Roy in a corner to try to kill him. Should I let him kill Roy? Not really, I was playing roy realistically, he's not going to nimbly avoid the different men while drunk and kinda clumsy. other guy wants to kill Roy cause it would make sense IC'ly for his character, I don't want to cause I was just being realistically playing Roy, but I don't see Roy getting out in any way, so I use consent in saying I don't want Roy dead, because I honestly don't, and I personally see it as a stupid thing to have Roy be killed over, one giant misunderstanding.
 

Raykaystar

Lord of Altera
true, but the argument starts when you don't think it's right that it should happen, example: I have Roy go to crossroads, argument starts up near him, he tries to move to get away from it, accidentally bumps one guy into another, due to having a bit much to drink and not being the lightest on his feet. This causes fight to escalate and guy he bumped into sees Roy and, thinking he was attacking him in the first place, manages to get Roy in a corner to try to kill him. Should I let him kill Roy? Not really, I was playing roy realistically, he's not going to nimbly avoid the different men while drunk and kinda clumsy. other guy wants to kill Roy cause it would make sense IC'ly for his character, I don't want to cause I was just being realistically playing Roy, but I don't see Roy getting out in any way, so I use consent in saying I don't want Roy dead, because I honestly don't, and I personally see it as a stupid thing to have Roy be killed over, one giant misunderstanding.
Like I said, consent should be used when needed, but if it turns into a giant argument, think about what others might want and respect one another as a fellow player.
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
true, but the argument starts when you don't think it's right that it should happen, example: I have Roy go to crossroads, argument starts up near him, he tries to move to get away from it, accidentally bumps one guy into another, due to having a bit much to drink and not being the lightest on his feet. This causes fight to escalate and guy he bumped into sees Roy and, thinking he was attacking him in the first place, manages to get Roy in a corner to try to kill him. Should I let him kill Roy? Not really, I was playing roy realistically, he's not going to nimbly avoid the different men while drunk and kinda clumsy. other guy wants to kill Roy cause it would make sense IC'ly for his character, I don't want to cause I was just being realistically playing Roy, but I don't see Roy getting out in any way, so I use consent in saying I don't want Roy dead, because I honestly don't, and I personally see it as a stupid thing to have Roy be killed over, one giant misunderstanding.
Can probably be solved with RP though.

"Man, back off!"
"Shorry m8 I've had a bit too much n'm tryin' t'get out of yer way" - I dunno, have the dude apologize, back off, be nonagressive?

That said, /immediately/ jumping to lethal in this situation may also be unrealistic, but y'know, not being there, I can't exactly judge it based on one person's statement.

I find for the most part that truly pacifist and non-inflammatory characters have only ever had to invoke consent rules when cliche psychopaths are involved. I've not once seen two reasonable characters, one of them peaceful and law abiding, get into an issue of consent, in over four years of playing on the server.

Honestly I feel like this is more an issue of attitude and expectation management amongst folks that additional rules will not really help much with.
 

Bartooliinii

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This is lovely. This very thread could become the end of any arguments.
Of course, 2 people with common sense and no disagreements can easily set up a few consent rules for their fight without this thread.
But if you happen to come across someone that doesn't want to agree with you, such rules are great to enforce the rp to take a logical and above all fair course.
So far, most of the times people regarded stuff as 'fair' when they got out safely. But that ain't fair. These rules are fair. I LOVE IT!

tl;dr
I support these rules and I hope they get implemented! :D
 

Lannis

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Anti and I have another proposal to add following an idea from a player (ain't know if you want to be named, poke me if so) that would largely replace the attacker/defender's conditional consents.

-Unless stated otherwise at the earliest possible point in a potentially lethal fight, consent to death is assumed. This is considered binding, and can't be declared otherwise once the fight is underway unless all parties agree to it. A fight is considered potentially lethal if it involves weapons, with the reasoning that a character should be free to take whatever means necessary if he thinks his life is being legitimately threatened. To change the level of consent from lethal, the player must announce or discuss what degree of violence he wants the outcome to meet as close to the beginning of the fight as possible.

In addition to encouraging a dialogue between the players, this prevents abuse of the system by one party only invoking consent when they look to be losing. One of the noteworthy interactions with this point is that neither party has to take a level of consent higher than their counterpart; If the defender doesn't want to die, the attacker isn't obligated to either.
 

Friosis

Lord of Altera
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I'm not saying something like this isn't obviously needed with the current abuse, but I feel some tweaking could be done. It feels a bit to large and strict for for the basic rules of combat and player interaction. Perhaps just putting a summury in the rules with a link to this thread next to it might work?
 

RexJen

Lord of Altera
Can probably be solved with RP though.

"Man, back off!"
"Shorry m8 I've had a bit too much n'm tryin' t'get out of yer way" - I dunno, have the dude apologize, back off, be nonagressive?

That said, /immediately/ jumping to lethal in this situation may also be unrealistic, but y'know, not being there, I can't exactly judge it based on one person's statement.

I find for the most part that truly pacifist and non-inflammatory characters have only ever had to invoke consent rules when cliche psychopaths are involved. I've not once seen two reasonable characters, one of them peaceful and law abiding, get into an issue of consent, in over four years of playing on the server.

Honestly I feel like this is more an issue of attitude and expectation management amongst folks that additional rules will not really help much with.
Playing Lionfang, who is a Vermella fanatic, I have realised just how stupid 99% of all combat rp truely is, it is almost all of the time "Eh mate you bumped into me I'm gonna rip out your throat with my teeth" its just so exausting to try and rationalise to people like that that they can't just fight all the time
 

Raykaystar

Lord of Altera
Playing Lionfang, who is a Vermella fanatic, I have realised just how stupid 99% of all combat rp truely is, it is almost all of the time "Eh mate you bumped into me I'm gonna rip out your throat with my teeth" its just so exausting to try and rationalise to people like that that they can't just fight all the time
See my characters see combat in different ways. The way you described was how Renee sees most of the combat at the crossroads whereas Sycamore fights when insulted or someone she cares for is insulted. Wynnter, fights for honor but really avoids it. Daisy avoids it like the plague! kind of depends on how you go about it ICly.
 

Jazzper

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Playing Lionfang, who is a Vermella fanatic, I have realised just how stupid 99% of all combat rp truely is, it is almost all of the time "Eh mate you bumped into me I'm gonna rip out your throat with my teeth" its just so exausting to try and rationalise to people like that that they can't just fight all the time
Even Azgir isn't that aggressive
 

Immerael

The Shadow Admín
Retired Staff
Even Azgir isn't that aggressive
But it happens. When I first joined Azure who was a peaceful farmer at the time had a price put on his head by a guy he had never met, interacted with or even heard of. Dude was going around putting bounties on folks for giggles I guess. He left the server but we will always have people are looking for fights and will try to get them through whatever means necessary.
 
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