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Edumacate yoself on the magic of steel

MRPolo13

The Arbiter of the Gods
Just to clarify this post isn't about the smith character whot I wanted to make. I'm not salty, promise... Shut up! No but yeah but no it's not about that.

What is steel?
Steel is simply put iron with added carbon. To give you a short explanation as to why this makes it great is that carbon particles are tiny, far smaller than iron particles, so when carbon is added to iron, it gets trapped in between the iron particles, giving them far less space to move around than they would otherwise, and making the metal tough. Any iron with a carbon content is steel, so essentially seeing iron on its own is basically impossible. Today's day iron? Usually called mild steel. High carbon steel? Not that high carbon, as I'll discuss in a few moments.

How is/was steel made?
There is something you have to understand about steel. It is a product made out of two of the most abundant materials on Earth. Carbon and iron are everywhere, in very large amounts. Eggheads think that the core is made out of iron, while carbon is in so many places we're literally made out of carbon. So to conclude both of these are everywhere.

But how were these two materials combined in the Medieval period? Well, it's quite simple, we used something called the blast furnace in Europe. A blast furnace puts a ton of heat and a ton of pressure at the bottom and less so towards the top. Iron ore and charcoal and all sorts of goodies would be thrown into the blast furnace and at the bottom two things would be created: The bloom and the slag. The slag was essentially useless, unless you were pressed for iron and you could smelt it again to make tiny bit more steel. The slag is everything that you don't want, mostly silicons and oxides of all sorts of things (more on this later). The bloom is where the magic is.

The bloom is what is called pig iron. Ironically (HAHAHAH) pig iron is actually a steel with a very high carbon content of around 3-4.5% where the perfect sword steel is arguably in the region of 0.5% to 0.9%ish (0.9 being a very high carbon content for sword steel). The bloom is also very impure. It just went through a mess of impure stuff and got mixed with sand and other nasty things that you generally don't want unless you're masochistic and like to get hurt by your own snapping blade. So what do you do? You hit it.

Turning the bloom into a workable material is simple. You whack it a bunch, then you snap/cut it in half and fold them together, then keep whacking it. You do that a lot of times, but fret not, in 15th century people had water-powered hammers that would speed everything up (trip hammers to be specific.) This would allow you to whack things faster without your poor hands getting tired. This process does three things. First, anything that isn't an oxide burns away. So all those impurities that weren't an oxide? They'll go. Oxygen bonds with stuff that isn't oxygen afterall. Second, impurities that are oxides get spread throughout the bloom. Third and most importantly, this process decarburises the material. Here's the word oft he day: decarburisation. You know how oxygen bonds to stuff that isn't oxygen? It does that to carbon too, and as you work the material the carbon content within it lowers slowly because the carbon flies away as part of one of the Carbon Oxides (I assume Carbon Dioxide because I haven't heard of many blacksmiths dying of Carbon Monoxide poisoning but idk I'm not your mum). That pig iron from before with 2-4% carbon content overtime will be lower to whatever. Depends how much you work it?

So where do master smiths come from?
Well, dear imaginary friend because I'm lonely, let me tell you. The quality of steel is down to how much whacking you do to the metal, and how well you quench your metal afterwards to realign the crystal structure (some other bull here about that. It's a subject far beyond my comprehension.) Making steel isn't difficult, you see, but making good steel for what you're trying to achieve is an entirely different story. If you decarburise the metal too much you're making it too soft and it won't heat treat properly (see above for the bull thing). If you don't do it enough your metal will be brittle because high carbon isn't always good.

Now, the reason why most smiths worked with 'iron' (in actuality mild steel not iron) is because everything is a lot easier. The metal can be worked a lot more without breaking and you don't have to worry about how much you whack it under heat.

So the metal is impure either way? How do you fix that?
Well you have to melt the steel. If you want to completely purify the metal you have to entirely melt it, which means making it reach roughly 1,600 degrees Celsius (which is something high in Fahrenheit. I don't work in crappy measurements. Later nerds.) Then you can simply scrape the slag off, since it floats to the top. The sad thing is that you can't reach that temperature. I'm hot as hell and I can't reach that temperature. Medieval people couldn't reach that temperature. That temperature would be reached in 18th century I believe, or maybe 19th... Anyway, fairly late. Later than the server. So our steel would be relatively impure but not to the point of being somehow crapper than 15th century European steel because chemistry. It'd just be meh. Also because of all the whacking the carbon would be spread unevenly through the piece. The larger the piece the worse.

That's all folks, now back to self-loathing and crying while I desperately seek attention elsewhere because I'm vain. Hahahah :( (Don't take this seriously please. The rest of the post is serious. This isn't.)
 
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Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
A good post.

(There was some discussion on where we were at for metal production with Lannis at some point regarding bloomeries and trip hammers and what not. I sincerely don't remember anything I responded with because it's at least a year back.)
 

CyberChaosV2

Lord of Altera
i think it was like reaaaaaaallly late 1600s that they started to be able to melt steel, but it was iffy then, 1700s was when it was much more consistent and they actually learned how to do it right, so you got it right around the mark. I'd also like to add that the japanese method of folding steel doesn't make steel the thing of gods, it makes it better certainly, but not by miles... more like by feet. another thing is that, with folding steel, this was done to reduce the carbon content of steel (I beliieeeve... I haven't looked at the details of folding steel for a while) and this was done thousands of times in Japan due to the crap metal they had to work with, incredibly high carbon content. folding a blade thousands of times with good ore is honestly just wasting time, all that said, good post Polo~

(Also, my offer to have roy teach your smith steelsmithing at any time still stands)
 

Baron

Sovereign
Retired Staff
i think it was like reaaaaaaallly late 1600s that they started to be able to melt steel, but it was iffy then, 1700s was when it was much more consistent and they actually learned how to do it right, so you got it right around the mark. I'd also like to add that the japanese method of folding steel doesn't make steel the thing of gods, it makes it better certainly, but not by miles... more like by feet. another thing is that, with folding steel, this was done to reduce the carbon content of steel (I beliieeeve... I haven't looked at the details of folding steel for a while) and this was done thousands of times in Japan due to the crap metal they had to work with, incredibly high carbon content. folding a blade thousands of times with good ore is honestly just wasting time, all that said, good post Polo~

(Also, my offer to have roy teach your smith steelsmithing at any time still stands)
Japanese steel could be folded only a few times tho
 

CyberChaosV2

Lord of Altera
Japanese steel could be folded only a few times tho
yes and no, you fold it so many times that it creates a thousand folds, because that was what was required given the seriously poor quality of ore that the japanese had access to. with good quality ore, it should only be folded once or twice.
 

Baron

Sovereign
Retired Staff
yes and no, you fold it so many times that it creates a thousand folds, because that was what was required given the seriously poor quality of ore that the japanese had access to. with good quality ore, it should only be folded once or twice.
Still wrong. It would be folded longitudinally 8-16 times, max 20. At 2^20, that's about a million layers.

Glorious Nippon steel, folded 1,000,000 times. Split filthy gaijin atoms like paper.
 

CyberChaosV2

Lord of Altera
Still wrong. It would be folded longitudinally 8-16 times, max 20. At 2^20, that's about a million layers.

Glorious Nippon steel, folded 1,000,000 times. Split filthy gaijin atoms like paper.
*shrugs* I'll admit, my memory sucks when it comes to those kinds of things, though can we not do this on a thread just talking about steel itself and the like?
 

Cymic_

Better than sliced bread
Legend
*shrugs* I'll admit, my memory sucks when it comes to those kinds of things, though can we not do this on a thread just talking about steel itself and the like?
i dont mean to steel ur thunder but my katana is folded 3 million times over and can cut someone in half with one swing. .......... ... ........ .. kid


thread is gr8 though, good read MRPolo13
 

Baron

Sovereign
Retired Staff
i dont mean to steel ur thunder but my katana is folded 3 million times over and can cut someone in half with one swing. .......... ... ........ .. kid


thread is gr8 though, good read MRPolo13
Can't fold it 3 million times. Your options are 2 and 4 million. Anyways, rerailing.
 

MRPolo13

The Arbiter of the Gods
Everyone folded steel. In Europe too. In fact Celts would fold the steel then twist it, then fold it again. It's not a Japanese-only method of working the metal. Eitherway you have to work pig iron if you want to make it into something useful. Also you can realistically fold steel as many times as you want. This isn't paper. You can cut the bloom in half then fold it over, which is what was done. With pig iron you just snap it in half because it's really brittle, but as it decarburises you can begin to properly fold it.

Also the thousand layer thing makes complete sense. If you fold something in half you have two layers. Then again you have four. Then again eight. So when you fold it 10 times you get 1024 layers. The misconception lies in the idea that the steel was folded a thousand times, not that it has a thousand layers.
 

MRPolo13

The Arbiter of the Gods
Just to note, just because you can fold the steel however many times you want to, doesn't mean you should. In the end you'll just lower the carbon content to the point where it'll just be mild steel, which is a bit counter-intuitive.
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
Just to note, just because you can fold the steel however many times you want to, doesn't mean you should. In the end you'll just lower the carbon content to the point where it'll just be mild steel, which is a bit counter-intuitive.
Chiming in to say Polo is 100% correct here. If you actually fold steel 1000 times, you are essentially back where you started.
 

CyberChaosV2

Lord of Altera
I don't consent, my steel only gets stronger the more I fold and do 360s decapitations.
only if you quench it in the blood of your dead relatives, the tears you shed only when you were a child due to how you killed your emotions since then, and heated the metal in the fires of hell itself.
 
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