Medieval & Fantasy Minecraft Roleplaying

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Let's talk magic systems theory

Baron

Sovereign
Retired Staff
this is not a replacement for the current system but a discussion about a possible alternative if one is ever needed, which doesn't need maguses and schools

Current system: Schools & Magi

In this system, there's a set list of spells, taught by an individual master to students they approve of until the students reach the point where they can educate others.

Pros:
+ Clearly defined abilities & limitations
+ Simple hierarchical structure

Cons:
- Clique-prone
- Many points of failure in the chain. If a magic character doesn't take students or a magus character becomes inactive, the system stalls out or fails.

I've been thinking on it a bit, and I'd like to propose a different system: Thaumism.

Thaumism:

In this system, there are no schools and no teachers. Instead, the focus is on figuring out ways to improve one's Thaumic Rating, which informs them and others of the capability of Reality Adjustment they can perform.

Reality Adjustment is the "magic" mechanic, in which a person temporarily modifies reality to some other state. For instance, changing the temperature in their local area by a few degrees or reverting minor wounds to health, perhaps making your surface thoughts audible to listeners as if you spoke them at normal volume. At medium levels you can turn invoking a spark into invoking a fireball. At high levels, this might include wide-area air pressure adjustment to summon storms, snapping the temperature of an object so low it shatters, or willing a new limb into existence for an amputee.

In Thaumism, the Baseline of the world is at 1 Thaum, and reality adjustment becomes possible at increasingly high differentials from the current Thaumic baseline. Someone with a Thaumic Rating of 5 has a differential of 4 Thaums over the baseline and thus can perform acts within this range of power.

This system is self-balancing. Every time you adjust reality, the thaumic differential lowers in response because you've now asserted a higher baseline rating as a result of your adjustment. This means low-differential users have a built-in limit to their performance, and high-differential casters can choose between many small adjustments or few major ones. This mirrors the mana point or spell limit system but does not require an overwatch authority.

As a side effect: Because adjustments are limited by distance (greater differential means larger potential area of effect), you end up with casters being able to simply go somewhere else to continue casting if necessary, and create "thaumic wells" in the world where massive casting forces smaller casting within its area where the baseline rating keeps going up as only more powerful casters can keep going. This opens options for items that discharge the increased thaumic rating in the area and lower it back to 1.

Thaumic adjustment to higher ratings will fall back over time as a natural result of entropy, with higher ratings falling back down faster towards 1 Thaum asymptotically.

How would such a system be implemented? Easily enough with a plugin that takes differential spent and formulaically and performs all these background adjustments.

Because magic is done through applying some level of differential, it's easy enough to establish baseline effects for what a differential value or interval can actually do, and then let players out into the world to discuss amongst themselves what other effects have equal or similar effect, submit it to the forums, and add it to some maintained and growing list of what each differential can do.

Let's take a look at a hypothetical basic list of differential effects:

0.1-1 Thaum Diff:
Brighten or dim colors in a 1m area
Raise or lower temperature in a 1m^2 area by 5C
Create a mild breeze around your person for 1 minute
Create a lighter flame for 30 seconds on the tip of your finger with no ill effects
Erase a bruise or other mild abrasion
Create a display no larger than 1m on a side of firefly lights for 1 minute
Enhance your voice to twice its normal volume

1.1-2 Thaum:
Create a finger-sized flame for 30 seconds, and direct it within your line of sight at a slow speed
Modify the temperature in a 5m^2 area by 5C
Give your voice equal volume in a 30 meter range in front of you
Create a gust from your hand (as if you were holding a dryer)
Create defined shapes out of light
Create a vivid burst of light or sound within 5m of your person, able to dazzle the unprepared
Expend 1 thaumic differential point to cancel out a 1-Thaum adjustment

etc

Pros:
+System is decentralized and doesn't rely on maguses
+System is fully freeform
+System self-adjusts for major effects similarly to points systems to prevent too much major work in one area
+Side-along items and structures let people build other things. For example, anchors that raise the Thaumic Rating higher than most people can cast so the differential is either too low or negative, preventing magic in the anchor's area. Similarly, sinks which pull the rating back down faster and allow more frequent or more dramatic casting.
+More creative people can exercise more creative abilities, rewarding those with good ideas

Cons:
-Not as simple to wrap your head around as spell lists
-Freeform nature may lead to disputes if a novel magic is attempted with no comparison in its differential range
-Proper implementation requires a plugin to define radii of effect

This is largely a first draft. Thoughts?

 

Baron

Sovereign
Retired Staff
How does one improve their rating? Grab or make items that let you manipulate at a higher differential, of course. Now casters can be disarmed by non magical types, and you can go the other direction and make armor that locally has large rating to prevent direct malfeasance on your person.

Now there's possiblity for Thaumic smiths and lore items that have some Thaumic quirk.
 

Scardrac

Felsummer
+1 for numerical nature.
+1 for no schools or magi.
+1 for very barebones (in a good way) lore implications, will allow more people to have the magic “type” they want without the chance of the magi being incompatible.
-1 for zero cross-magician mechanics. Magus absolutely needed to roleplay to give you lessons or magic. Removing progression in form of masters and lessons instantaneously removes the amount of roleplay you will be having that is magic related. This I fear would only make magic a character belonging that is either a show-off tool for other people, or a CRP complaint report waiting to happen because of a reputation being formed that magic is “too easy”, due to the lack of witnesses to your progression.

7/10 from me, severely needs necessary interaction with other mages or magic related things doable or experienced with another character. Otherwise, good basis for everything else.
 

Baron

Sovereign
Retired Staff
+1 for numerical nature.
+1 for no schools or magi.
+1 for very barebones (in a good way) lore implications, will allow more people to have the magic “type” they want without the chance of the magi being incompatible.
-1 for zero cross-magician mechanics. Magus absolutely needed to roleplay to give you lessons or magic. Removing progression in form of masters and lessons instantaneously removes the amount of roleplay you will be having that is magic related. This I fear would only make magic a character belonging that is either a show-off tool for other people, or a CRP complaint report waiting to happen because of a reputation being formed that magic is “too easy”, due to the lack of witnesses to your progression.

7/10 from me, severely needs necessary interaction with other mages or magic related things doable or experienced with another character. Otherwise, good basis for everything else.
Magic is in fact typeless in this system. One could choose to focus on doing healing or on deciding to make themselves better at fighting, or energy manipulation or telepathy or any number of things. Ideally anyone can do anything within their grasp, with people who have some preferred magic usage being better at RPing it and pulling novel tricks with it
 

Scardrac

Felsummer
Magic is in fact typeless in this system. One could choose to focus on doing healing or on deciding to make themselves better at fighting, or energy manipulation or telepathy or any number of things. Ideally anyone can do anything within their grasp, with people who have some preferred magic usage being better at RPing it and pulling novel tricks with it
Which is the thing I love about it. That is what I think is right about this. How would you prepare the system to have people obtain magic? Sure, the ofs and abouts of magic are fun to explore, but don’t people have a problem mostly over obtaining magic? I know you made a disclaimer at the top, but I can’t help but feel that the free thinking that led to this has something to do with the inadequeces or dramas of the past and current systems.

And, removing necessary masters removes one part of clique-culture, but what stops the mages from pooling together and excluding those they think shouldn’t have their gift?

Future questions for a sidethought, yeah. But it’s all in good heart, Baron. Glad to discuss.
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
Which is the thing I love about it. That is what I think is right about this. How would you prepare the system to have people obtain magic? Sure, the ofs and abouts of magic are fun to explore, but don’t people have a problem mostly over obtaining magic? I know you made a disclaimer at the top, but I can’t help but feel that the free thinking that led to this has something to do with the inadequeces or dramas of the past and current systems.

And, removing necessary masters removes one part of clique-culture, but what stops the mages from pooling together and excluding those they think shouldn’t have their gift?

Future questions for a sidethought, yeah. But it’s all in good heart, Baron. Glad to discuss.
Part of the solution there is simply to grant every single character the basic proficiency in the system, and then allow interactions with the plugin to objectively take them further or not.

The dichotomy is thus.

If it requires 'Roleplay' to acquire it will always have the potential of abuse, of cliques. Of nepotism and favoritism accusations, founded or not.

If it does not require 'Roleplay' it's quite obvious the quality may suffer.

The initial draft of the magus system wasn't made with the reasons of putting a 'barrier to entry' onto magic, or to restrict it - it was made so that people had some means of earning said magic and thus could have some pride in an accomplishment slash stand up to people saying one could just 'make up' their magic proficiency, back in the day.

An inherant problem is that despite, at least in some regards, folks having to go through a difficult process (The difficulty of which varies drastically depending on teacher) - the actual effort they put in nonetheless remains invisible and must be taken on faith.

The only way for there to be a fairer system is for a wholly objective one, of some sort, to be introduced - thence, those who made progress clearly had every opportunity that everybody else did, and made the most gains.
 

Lily_

Lord of Altera
Mystic
LillithLil_
LillithLil_
LegendMystic
I really like the idea of this and would like to see it come to some kind of final version. c:
 

Baron

Sovereign
Retired Staff
Which is the thing I love about it. That is what I think is right about this. How would you prepare the system to have people obtain magic? Sure, the ofs and abouts of magic are fun to explore, but don’t people have a problem mostly over obtaining magic? I know you made a disclaimer at the top, but I can’t help but feel that the free thinking that led to this has something to do with the inadequeces or dramas of the past and current systems.

And, removing necessary masters removes one part of clique-culture, but what stops the mages from pooling together and excluding those they think shouldn’t have their gift?

Future questions for a sidethought, yeah. But it’s all in good heart, Baron. Glad to discuss.
Compare/contrast is a nice way to discover things about the systems in place and where we can improve, which is definitely a major goal of this thread
 

Baron

Sovereign
Retired Staff
Part of the solution there is simply to grant every single character the basic proficiency in the system, and then allow interactions with the plugin to objectively take them further or not.

The dichotomy is thus.

If it requires 'Roleplay' to acquire it will always have the potential of abuse, of cliques. Of nepotism and favoritism accusations, founded or not.

If it does not require 'Roleplay' it's quite obvious the quality may suffer.

The initial draft of the magus system wasn't made with the reasons of putting a 'barrier to entry' onto magic, or to restrict it - it was made so that people had some means of earning said magic and thus could have some pride in an accomplishment slash stand up to people saying one could just 'make up' their magic proficiency, back in the day.

An inherant problem is that despite, at least in some regards, folks having to go through a difficult process (The difficulty of which varies drastically depending on teacher) - the actual effort they put in nonetheless remains invisible and must be taken on faith.

The only way for there to be a fairer system is for a wholly objective one, of some sort, to be introduced - thence, those who made progress clearly had every opportunity that everybody else did, and made the most gains.
The mcmmo system comes to mind. Experience and transparent information about achievement
 

Scardrac

Felsummer
Naelwyn before you mentioned it, I had thought of the “what if” that is universal magic. With the fraction-based progression here that could be a way to provide inclusion and further deter from defined cliques. Would need the same amount of effort in management as the creation of the system itself, I believe.

Some form of risk would be beneficial. Gambling comes to mind. Risk v Reward. Have your typical “beware the magic”, but change it in a way that allows players to stop where they want. Lock numbers behind roll walls (rolls could be done more fairly what with your intinite numbers. Increase variables with expansive modifications to rolls depending on rank/type of attempt.) Players who do not want to die and will stop when there is a chance, players who are reaching for a goal will have to take the risks. Self-balance, with those in charge only having to OK the roll and desired effect/progression. With your idea of a single magic, you could get away with saying healers or passive magics have less risk up until they get to a point where they can change the tide of player conflict, whereas novice flamethrowers risk their hands and eventually their life earlier on.

Sure, requires effort, but I think it would be warranted if your idea suddenly was slotted in as our go-to system.
 

Baron

Sovereign
Retired Staff
Could make it possible to chain magic with diminishing returns, so 2 is better than 1, 3 is somewhat better than 2, 4 is kind of better than 3, etc
 

Heie

Lord of Altera
Lore Staff
Legend
Staff
This would be more plausible if you started with the current magic system. I like the idea of everyone starting with a base extreme low magic level, but with macro's you are going to have some serious abusers of the system. An easier access system would be to state that you can self teach to some predescribed level, [rules on learning thoroughly explained on some forum page] then if you want to progress you must find someone of higher caliber to train you who understands the system. You wouldn't neccesarily need magus's in this version. Simply someone who is say adept or master level to train you.

Technically the only hindrance to current system is the need for a magus to spark you. Other than that, from what I have seen from the outside, i really like it. A macro based system rather than a RP learned system has far to much more potential for abuse and or for collosal lore misunderstandings.
 

Heie

Lord of Altera
Lore Staff
Legend
Staff
Nowhere do I say it's a macro useable system
my bad, i was refering to the mcmmo use that you refrenced.

I'm also not stating your idea is bad. I liked most of you points. I personally think its a little late in the game to change the lore and magic system drastically.
 
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