More on OOC Issues

[Somnastra]

Greetings, Alterans!

This is one of those instances where I am bringing an issue the server is facing to you all, as asking for your help in solving it.

A few weeks ago, Mairin posted this thread: http://hollowworld.co.uk/threads/rp-and-ooc-conduct-and-staff-involvement.29297/. This thread was prompted largely in part by the bickering that was starting to become more prevalent surrounding the Corrupted, Aellyrdale, the Engem, and Senatoor, and then ultimately, much of the server. There were probably quite a lot of factors that contributed to this, including the extended length of the campaign, during which everyone was feeling the stress in one way or another. Tension was high, and tempers flared. This is one of the reasons why we (Staff) have tried to be as understanding as we can when dealing with these issues. We haven't always succeeded, for which I apologize, but every staff member has tried their hardest to be as fair as they knew how.

Before we really get started, I want to emphasize this particular piece of the King's Law:

21. Citizens are required to protect the harmony of the HollowWorld community and ensure that they contribute positively to it. This means players must behave in a manner befitting an upstanding HollowWorld Citizen and refraining from activities which could be construed as damaging the community by admin staff.

This was the one that Mairin emphasized in her post. I want to supplement it with second:

20. Players must not incite drama storms. If you are reporting a problem or player, please provide proof and don't make it public - make a conversation with any staff member.

The part of that last one that is important is the first bit. "Players must not incite drama storms." Because that's what the last few weeks have felt like in the overarching, dominant RP on the server. I don't mean that there was IC drama (there was), but rather, there was OOC drama that stemmed from the RP that was happening. And there has never been any party involved that was clearly in the right (or in the wrong, please bear that in mind). It has simply been exhausting trying to sort through all this stuff, and the sort of sentiments that are growing in OOC are ... well, frankly, they're starting to get a bit nasty. And staff has just about run out of options to peacefully resolve this.

We're nearly to the point where we just want to hand out bans to all involved parties for behavior like we've seen in the past few weeks. It's been seriously suggested among Staff. And not discarded out of hand. Let that sink in for a moment.

We're really not trying to exert some kind of power over you with this. We simply want Hollow World to be a community that we can all be proud of. That means that OOC disputes are resolved with minimal staff intervention. That was the point of Mairin's thread. And right now, it feels like every instance of In Character conflict is followed-up by an Out of Character argument that inevitably has to have staff involved. And no one is ever satisfied with the results.

What I need from you all is a candid and civil discussion of possible solutions to this problem that have not already been attempted by staff. We also need to develop clear consequences to perpetuating these sorts of conflicts. I will be satisfied to allow this discussion to go on for a week or more, if necessary, as long as progress is made, and people are being courteous. But we need to come to some sort of decision that staff can use going forward. Or we will have to start using sterner methods.

I'm not asking you guys to like each other. It would be nice, but that's not up to me. I am asking that you help keep this server a fun place for others to RP. To that end, if anyone is having difficulty keeping their tempers in check while having this discussion, I will happily provide them with a 24 hour vacation from the forums via a temporary IP ban. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that, but I want to make clear to you guys how serious I am.

Now, shall we get started?

 

[SallyPirate]

*chortles merrily* It didn't used to be drama storms, but I was told off because of the swear word it had

 

[MaelstromPuddle]

All i'm going to say is...:

Senatoor are being hard to deal with, they are bringing this on themselves and the staff and players are getting tired of all this.

 

[Itzzaboy]

I know I'm not really that big on IC issues atm, but surely posting this sort of thing publicly is only going to make things worse?

 

[Sos]

Most of these issues are more symptoms than the problem itself... But hey, that's my opinion

 

[DraconDarknight]

All i'm going to say is...:

Senatoor are being hard to deal with, they are bringing this on themselves and the staff and players are getting tired of all this.

I already said to them that they can solve their prosecution problem easily by laying low and making their region peaceful for a time - I got a negative rating as an answer for it.
Nevertheless, from Hierax IC perspective its a problem of the south and we don#t care much about what they do IC, o I guess I can see it somewhat neutral.

A good idea might be, as drastic as it sounds, forcing a {peaceful} tag on the regions , or maybe even the players, in question for a week or two.

I think its known that I'm actually not a exactly a fan peaceful region tag at all, since its far from every reality, but I see its advantage in situations like this.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that the entire south vs Senator drama started with the incident in Lydel and was partly justified with the region tag(that was at that time not even enforced)

 

[Sos]

I already said to them that they can solve their prosecution problem easily by laying low and making their region peaceful for a time - I got a negative rating as an answer for it.
Nevertheless, from Hierax IC perspective its a problem of the south and we don#t care much about what they do IC, o I guess I can see it somewhat neutral.

A good idea might be, as drastic as it sounds, forcing a {peaceful} tag on the regions , or maybe even the players, in question for a week or two.

I think its known that I'm actually not a exactly a fan peaceful region tag at all, since its far from every reality, but I see its advantage in situations like this.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that the entire south vs Senator drama started with the incident in Lydel and was partly justified with the region tag(that was at that time not even enforced)

Then would the solution be to enforce the rules? IC? or OOC?

 

[Gaby]

I feel there's a serious problem with the general attitude thats encouraged on this server. it's really hard for me to articulate this, but I feel the issue leading to these bouts of ooc drama has its roots in...
well in the culture of the server.

I'm absolutely not saying the community sucks. what I'm saying is, I think this problem is being caused by a collection of very subtle attitudes that lead players to get...

I'll say the word. hyperviolent. I think a lot of the roleplay here is becoming too violent, and that this constant violence is leading people to bring rp conflicts into ooc.

I know what you're thinking, how do these problems even connect? let me explain.
violence is, by it's very nature, very emotional. physically attacking someone, especially with the intent to kill, is an intense situation. it is not something to be taken lightly. it can be such a overwhelmingly negative experience, that in excess, it can seriously affect someone's psyche for the rest of their lives (example: PTSD in war veterans)

part of what makes someone a good writer is the ability to emphasize with their characters. part of what makes a good actor is being able to see things from a character's perspective and "become" the character. a roleplayer is simultaneously writer and actor, and the experience of roleplaying is something that becomes very emotional, and very, very personal.
if you've had a character for years, and they're sweet, and charming, and have all these deep, meaningful relationships with their friends, and a whole life ahead of them...
you're bound to get upset when some moor elf decides to go hannibal on them. you're going to argue with them about this, and it's going to be ugly.
it's getting to the point where my main, a pacifistic character with a strong aversion to blades, now has to carry one because she feels threatened by someone she considered a trusted friend. Falandraal has to be a literal stronghold in order to feel even remotely safe. almost every single fight now turns into a bickering contest that staff have to intervene in.

excessively violent roleplay leads to a competitive attitude in roleplay. a competitive attitude in roleplay leads to arguments and ooc hatred. arguments and ooc hatred lead to staff headaches. staff headaches lead to mass banhammering.
is my point made here?


now, I bet a lot of people are going to get mad at me (or I'm going to get ten million player loves. or both at the same time), but I feel now is the point that it needs to be said. we have too many violent characters, we have too much violent roleplay.
I have nothing wrong with the violent characters, or the violent roleplay. but you have to play these things with maturity, people! you have to show restraint. this is not a fighting game, it's a not a free-for-all. this is definitely not a PvP server!

now, as for solutions to the violence problem...
I'm trying to solve it IC, actually.
the Law of Red is a pretty good way to stop a character from being excessively violent.
it's literally "do not draw blood unless you have to." thats a basic code of respect, probably comparable to the codes of chivalry that knights have. and I can name a few times where Salheira has ic lectured people that even though it doesn't break the Law, provoking someone to attack you is a pretty foolish thing to do, especially as it leads to red being spilled anyways.

of course, the Followers of Vermella are a small group, and we're not going to take over the world any time soon, so my efforts to solve this problem are small. but I think if other groups decided to put a stronger emphasis on encouraging their warriors and knights, ic and ooc, to find peaceful solutions first, and to not be so trigger-happy every time someone looks at them wrong, we might find these problems becoming a lot more manageable.

and someones going to talk to me about how medieval times were completely barbaric, and its utterly unrealistic to expect bands of warriors to act like hippies.
yeaaaaah no. not everyone in the middle ages carried a dang sword. it wasnt utter barbarianism with people getting decapitated every dang second (some people say Game of Thrones is more violent than the middle ages actually was). there were laws. there was a code of conduct, especially for the people who were given leave to kill people. I mean, hell, it was a civilization, not an anarchy.

give your violent characters a limit. have them show mercy. don't kill your enemies to win a battle.
on a side note, if the good characters start showing restraint with their violence, and they don't leap to draw their swords because someone threw a bottle (you know who you are...), then it'll be a lot easier to identify the actual bad guys!
I mean, isn't this whole Senatoor arguing happening because that house keeps trying to assert themselves as good guys, and they feel attacked every time someone points out something bad their members did?

wouldn't these constant calls to bring someone to justice feel a lot less morally ambiguous if you knew with absolute proof your enemy was a criminal who refused to show mercy?

just saying.

 

[skuller]

I mean, isn't this whole Senatoor arguing happening because that house keeps trying to assert themselves as good guys, and they feel attacked every time someone points out something bad their members did?

I'm not going to get into the reasons the arguments are happening but no it's not that they're trying to be "good guys" and then we're just putting them down. It's happening because of recent things that we're just not happy about.

 

[Baron]

What things might these be?

 

[BarbarianGaming]

I'm not going to get into the reasons

@Baron

 

[Gaby]

I'm not going to get into the reasons the arguments are happening but no it's not that they're trying to be "good guys" and then we're just putting them down. It's happening because of recent things that we're just not happy about.

ehhhhhhhhhh

I don't want Senatoors disliking my posts and I know they'd do it.
that was the least sassy assessment of the situation that I could muster.

Spoiler

[incredibly peeved off venting about senatoors]
[apparently very relatable, but deleted to avoid drama]

 

[Centurion]

violence is, by it's very nature, very emotional. physically attacking someone, especially with the intent to kill, is an intense situation. it is not something to be taken lightly. it can be such a overwhelmingly negative experience, that in excess, it can seriously affect someone's psyche for the rest of their lives (example: PTSD in war veterans)

I can testify that having a character emotionally break down when he's first forced to kill somebody in order to save a friend's life is great development. A few people were there to witness it, it was fun to RP, and it changed Eudo permanently.

He literally threw up after it and curled up in a ball to cry.

@blargtheawesome
@Sybbyl
@Sizzix3507


Point being, sometimes it's much more fun to lose emotionally.

I can also cite that despite the fact Archaeus is (now developed in to properly) a bit of a badass soldier, he's not that great at strategy. He never has been. And with age, his memory is not as good as it once was, and his fingers are an immense detriment to daily life.

But it's still incredibly fun to play him. Losing mentally every once in awhile (and even losing a fight) can be room for amazing development, if the adversary doesn't execute your character. I remember waaaay back on my second or third night on the server, Archaeus was... relatively touchy, and untrusting, so he put a sword towards Nwalme. Well, he had his ass kicked by Cloud, Nwalme, and one of Bette's old characters, and proceeded to lose all of his fingers. Of course at the time I was upset. I was upset because my character was crippled permanently - but the next morning, I was excited. Excited to carry on his story and see where it would carry me.

Overall, ladies and gentlemen, it's not about win or lose here. It's about the stories you get to tell as your character. And Archaeus has a hell of a lot of stories nowadays; it's incredibly fun.

/endrant

P.S.: You guys should aim to have your characters react more to death and murder. It takes its toll on people. Archaeus has nightmares still, and don't even get me started on Danniella. Even Eudoxius still has nightmares from the time he accidentally caused somebody to fall on their own sword and kill themselves.

 

[Gaby]

guys.

I'd prefer you player loved my treatise on solving the issues here, rather than my /spoilered rant about the Senatoors?
thanks for the resounding love but honestly.
I'm trying to maintain good ooc relations with people.

 

[Patrickdxs]

I feel there's a serious problem with the general attitude thats encouraged on this server. it's really hard for me to articulate this, but I feel the issue leading to these bouts of ooc drama has its roots in...
well in the culture of the server.

I'm absolutely not saying the community sucks. what I'm saying is, I think this problem is being caused by a collection of very subtle attitudes that lead players to get...

I'll say the word. hyperviolent. I think a lot of the roleplay here is becoming too violent, and that this constant violence is leading people to bring rp conflicts into ooc.

I know what you're thinking, how do these problems even connect? let me explain.
violence is, by it's very nature, very emotional. physically attacking someone, especially with the intent to kill, is an intense situation. it is not something to be taken lightly. it can be such a overwhelmingly negative experience, that in excess, it can seriously affect someone's psyche for the rest of their lives (example: PTSD in war veterans)

part of what makes someone a good writer is the ability to emphasize with their characters. part of what makes a good actor is being able to see things from a character's perspective and "become" the character. a roleplayer is simultaneously writer and actor, and the experience of roleplaying is something that becomes very emotional, and very, very personal.
if you've had a character for years, and they're sweet, and charming, and have all these deep, meaningful relationships with their friends, and a whole life ahead of them...
you're bound to get upset when some moor elf decides to go hannibal on them. you're going to argue with them about this, and it's going to be ugly.
it's getting to the point where my main, a pacifistic character with a strong aversion to blades, now has to carry one because she feels threatened by someone she considered a trusted friend. Falandraal has to be a literal stronghold in order to feel even remotely safe. almost every single fight now turns into a bickering contest that staff have to intervene in.

excessively violent roleplay leads to a competitive attitude in roleplay. a competitive attitude in roleplay leads to arguments and ooc hatred. arguments and ooc hatred lead to staff headaches. staff headaches lead to mass banhammering.
is my point made here?


now, I bet a lot of people are going to get mad at me (or I'm going to get ten million player loves. or both at the same time), but I feel now is the point that it needs to be said. we have too many violent characters, we have too much violent roleplay.
I have nothing wrong with the violent characters, or the violent roleplay. but you have to play these things with maturity, people! you have to show restraint. this is not a fighting game, it's a not a free-for-all. this is definitely not a PvP server!

now, as for solutions to the violence problem...
I'm trying to solve it IC, actually.
the Law of Red is a pretty good way to stop a character from being excessively violent.
it's literally "do not draw blood unless you have to." thats a basic code of respect, probably comparable to the codes of chivalry that knights have. and I can name a few times where Salheira has ic lectured people that even though it doesn't break the Law, provoking someone to attack you is a pretty foolish thing to do, especially as it leads to red being spilled anyways.

of course, the Followers of Vermella are a small group, and we're not going to take over the world any time soon, so my efforts to solve this problem are small. but I think if other groups decided to put a stronger emphasis on encouraging their warriors and knights, ic and ooc, to find peaceful solutions first, and to not be so trigger-happy every time someone looks at them wrong, we might find these problems becoming a lot more manageable.

and someones going to talk to me about how medieval times were completely barbaric, and its utterly unrealistic to expect bands of warriors to act like hippies.
yeaaaaah no. not everyone in the middle ages carried a dang sword. it wasnt utter barbarianism with people getting decapitated every dang second (some people say Game of Thrones is more violent than the middle ages actually was). there were laws. there was a code of conduct, especially for the people who were given leave to kill people. I mean, hell, it was a civilization, not an anarchy.

give your violent characters a limit. have them show mercy. don't kill your enemies to win a battle.
on a side note, if the good characters start showing restraint with their violence, and they don't leap to draw their swords because someone threw a bottle (you know who you are...), then it'll be a lot easier to identify the actual bad guys!
I mean, isn't this whole Senatoor arguing happening because that house keeps trying to assert themselves as good guys, and they feel attacked every time someone points out something bad their members did?

wouldn't these constant calls to bring someone to justice feel a lot less morally ambiguous if you knew with absolute proof your enemy was a criminal who refused to show mercy?

just saying.

I'd like to suggest a system that goes with this post. Something that /discourages/ killing other characters, or even acting violent... Perhaps enforcing the realistic emotional and mental strains and consequences that would happen from killing a person? Or simply put more scrutiny on violent characters as a whole? Really, something /needs/ to be done about the state of hyper violence on the server.

 

[Gaby]

I'd like to suggest a system that goes with this post. Something that /discourages/ killing other characters, or even acting violent... Perhaps enforcing the realistic emotional and mental strains and consequences that would happen from killing a person? Or simply putt more scrutiny on violent characters as a whole? Really, something /needs/ to be done about the state of hyper violence on the server.

thank you for this! I'm really not being articulate today.

 

[DraconDarknight]

Oh yeah the medieval violence debate came up again.

So of course GoT is too violent - First off the real world didn't have a Dyneris and her Dragons, fire gods, those strange things in the north or whatsoever.

What is a truth though is that the guards back then didn't really care about breaking legs, the roads were technically full of bandits who cared even less.
People were kept silent and the general education was almost nill from our perspective, so of course bar fights were other than war times the most common form of violence.

What people forget though is: In war, Lords often razed their own villages, just so enemies passing by couldn't get anything from them. Cloisters and Monasteries were indiscriminately raided, burned down and everyone killed like it was a military outpost. -> I will refer you to the historical novels 'World without end' and 'The pillars of Earth' here.

And sorry to say it, Vermella might not be the best one to bring up, since at least the prophesy already hints that it is ultimately either her or Sallana, so the whole Vermella thing is basically asking for religious war.

 

[Patrickdxs]

Oh yeah the medieval violence debate came up again.

So of course GoT is too violent - First off the real world didn't have a Dyneris and her Dragons, fire gods, those strange things in the north or whatsoever.

What is a truth though is that the guards back then didn't really care about breaking legs, the roads were technically full of bandits who cared even less.
People were kept silent and the general education was almost nill from our perspective, so of course bar fights were other than war times the most common form of violence.

What people forget though is: In war, Lords often razed their own villages, just so enemies passing by couldn't get anything from them. Cloisters and Monasteries were indiscriminately raided, burned down and everyone killed like it was a military outpost. -> I will refer you to the historical novels 'World without end' and 'The pillars of Earth' here.

And sorry to say it, Vermella might not be the best one to bring up, since at least the prophesy already hints that it is ultimately either her or Sallana, so the whole Vermella thing is basically asking for religious war.

How about we take away the fact the setting is medieval and realize there are /gods/ who are dedicated purely to keeping the peace, and education has been spread more often in this fantasy server, to the point that it's generally accepted breaking legs and killing people was a no no. The metaphor may be slightly off but, we don't need to debate or argue the metaphor because the point still stands true.

The server appears to have to much violence, and this needs to be fixed. A argument about medieval violence is pointless in this situation, same goes for a debate about Vermella. Lets focus on what we can do to lower these OOC issues, and lowering violence is one of those ways in my mind.

 

[Tybalt]

All i'm going to say is...:

Senatoor are being hard to deal with, they are bringing this on themselves and the staff and players are getting tired of all this.

Concerning this. It is very much true.

You all know I ooc and ic have had problems with Senatoor in the past.

I have been talking with ACU oocly lately and I did feel bad for his region to continually get bashed. Even tho it did for good reason.

So Azerport granted every Senatoor but Sarus Senatoor amnesty. I told Robert everything he needed to do to not get under my characters skin. Therefore saving himself from dealing with another nation hunting them.
The ooc tips I gave him was pretty much meta. But if it saved from going to another war and ooc disputes so be it.

Well since then House Senatoor done everything to get under my /IC/ nerves.

Such as
Coming to Azerport threatening to kill Tybs daughter.
Sarus smashing bottles in the tavern
Coming to Azerport telling Tybalt to just let Morna be (which that is an old song everyone has been singing to me since she was created and the arguments concerning her are wearing down on my patience)
And demanding my apology for throwing a bottle at Sarus after he put his dirty boots on the table in Azerports bar.
Planning to kill Naela Marr in Azerport

And this is ooc info I was given and I have not used it in deciding anything. If Tybalt did know there would already be a war

(I will make sure Marr falls)

None of this angers me. It's IC people. This is a story and anything can happen. I'm not going to take harsh ooc feelings. Just respond accordingly.

What I don't understand is. If they want peace so bad. Why do they continue to do everything to piss off a nation they want to be ally's with?
Even AFTER talking about it ooc what needs to be done to achieve this.


Just use sense people.


Also another thing with the stress involving Aellyrdale.
Is the friggen love pentaoctagooglegrams.

They are SOO unnecessary and murders happen because of them inciting more drama.

 

[Gaby]

I'm not about to discuss the precise degree of messed up in the Medieval times without proper research.

I'm also not about to discuss the Heart Prophecy on this thread, as that is soooo off-topic

this is about hyperviolence on this server. there's so many other ways to get a proper medieval fantasy vibe in Hollowworld without resorting to the barbarianism present in those times.

not even mentioning how the terribleness of the dark ages wasn't universal everywhere else in the world. the islamic world, for example, was discovering a lot of things about medicine and mathematics at the time.

How about we take away the fact the setting is medieval and realize there are /gods/ who are dedicated purely to keeping the peace, and education has been spread more often in this fantasy server

yeah this is what I mean.
our level of education alone means we're already not subscribing to a purely european dark ages idea of medieval times.

sometimes, I think the obsession with violence in modern entertainment is a disease. I don't think it's teaching us the right values. it's kind of sick, honestly.

excuse me for wanting a basic guideline of human decency in my fantasy roleplay.