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NPC Sailors and NPC Armies

blargtheawesome

... is very scientifical.
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Boats are cool. Both Venice and Great Britain were absolutely world renown for their navies. Venice was the terror of the Mediterranean at the height of its day, and the inspiration for GRRM's Braavos. They had such sophisticated practices that they could make a war ship in a day or something, right?

In the waters off the west of Scotland between 1263 and 1500, the Lords of the Isles used galleys both for warfare and for transport around their maritime domain, which included the west coast of the Scottish Highlands, the Hebrides, and Antrim in Ireland. They employed these ships for sea-battles and for attacking castles or forts built close to the sea. As a feudal superior, the Lord of the Isles required the service of a specified number and size of galleys from each holding of land. For examples the Isle of Man had to provide six galleys of 26 oars, and Sleat in Skye had to provide one 18-oar galley.

Carvings of galleys on tombstones from 1350 onwards show the construction of these boats. From the 14th century they abandoned a steering-oar in favour of a stern rudder, with a straight stern to suit. From a document of 1624, a galley proper would have 18 to 24 oars, a birlinn 12 to 18 oars and a lymphad fewer still.
(don't reference wikipedia in your essays etc etc; i'm just being lazy and needed some reference numbers)

Keeping in mind that being a sailor, an experienced one at least, generally means that you're an exceptionally valuable commodity. If you need a larger army, you just train your peasants for a few days or weeks, give them a few arms and armor, and then put them in rank and file. If you need more sailors, you can't teach someone how to sail in a few days like you can teach them how to use, say, a mace. The way you get more sailors is by kidnapping them off of other people's vessels and conscripting them into your navy, instead of, say, America's or France's or something.

...a birlinn 12 to 18 oars and a lymphad fewer still.
So this is the smallest number in my little blurb stolen from Wikipedia. You need one person operating each oar of your ship - which you could have galley slaves do, it's really quite simple, if outrageously exhaustive work. I can think of maybe four towns, if I'm pressed to, that could come up with enough people to man the oars of one of these. One or two that could come up with enough people to man two of them. But, this is just one comparatively small ship. There's some that required over a hundred skilled sailors, not galley slaves, to operate; and, a fleet would have a few of those sorts of ships in there.

What's the stance on NPCs/temps justifying having a decently sized navy? How does that affect the stance on NPC/temp armies?
 

K9

Triangles are my favourite shape
Crafter
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K9_Diarmuid
K9_Diarmuid
Crafter
Hey Ireland was mentioned I've been summoned

-K9
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
Oh lord we're finally talking about the boats.

Imo people go way overboard on boats as a kind of pride-measuring contest. Many craft in Altera's waters could not be adequately crewed if the entire server piled on for them. Even as an example for the latest campaign event, the boat travel was completely glossed over, for a boat that should need a good brace of crew.

The only folks I have ever seen to actually, adequately crew a vessel were Lannis / Michcat and folks and their group. Small boat, crew sufficient for all the sails, etc.
 

Rygan

Deathblade
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not to mention the fact that we shouldn't have boats that big anyways

post 15th century get out
 

Immerael

The Shadow Admín
Retired Staff
So far what I've seen is a very Fairly Odd Parents take on everything. You can brag about your ships or massive army all you want but the moment you use them to exert will on something of someone other than yourself your left without your nice magically manned and maintained armies and navies, thus having to do it yourself.
 

StartOmega

Lord of Altera
So far what I've seen is a very Fairly Odd Parents take on everything. You can brag about your ships or massive army all you want but the moment you use them to exert will on something of someone other than yourself your left without your nice magically manned and maintained armies and navies, thus having to do it yourself.
"Everyone came down with a cold,you'll have to man the entire fleet yourself captain"
 

blargtheawesome

... is very scientifical.
Events Staff
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Probably waiting for staff to give a say with some authority
i'm not looking for a big spoopy staffy answer i'm just curious

Oh lord we're finally talking about the boats.

Imo people go way overboard on boats as a kind of pride-measuring contest. Many craft in Altera's waters could not be adequately crewed if the entire server piled on for them. Even as an example for the latest campaign event, the boat travel was completely glossed over, for a boat that should need a good brace of crew.

The only folks I have ever seen to actually, adequately crew a vessel were Lannis / Michcat and folks and their group. Small boat, crew sufficient for all the sails, etc.
yah, but considering that we're doing several individual cities and kingdoms/duchies/empires/etceterapickyourpoison, and the server population in total is only roundabouts enough people to fill up an extremely small town, NPCs are around somewhere. i'm just wondering, like, the extent that we can use them for.
 

Michcat

i'm the wench if you're the cake ;)
i'm not looking for a big spoopy staffy answer i'm just curious


yah, but considering that we're doing several individual cities and kingdoms/duchies/empires/etceterapickyourpoison, and the server population in total is only roundabouts enough people to fill up an extremely small town, NPCs are around somewhere. i'm just wondering, like, the extent that we can use them for.
IIRC:
Backround and no more. Nothing that'll effect RP in any concrete way.
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
Note: These are highly unofficial rules but I think they're a pretty fair standard we can follow:

At the very least I would presume, even if NPCs are allowed, if you want to have a ship sailed you have:

1) A PC Capable of Navigating
2) A PC Capable of Piloting the Rudder
3) A PC on lookout for shoals and rocks
4) AT LEAST 1 (One) PC per mast of the ship that actually knows how to sail, ie, if they mess up, bad stuff will happen
5) One PC per deck of cannons per side of the ship.

Proper ships, not including military functions, will also have:
Quartermasters
Sail-wrights
Rope-wrights
Armorers
Swabbies
Cook(s)
Surgeon(s)
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
i'd argue one PC per cannon tbh

even though cannons are pretty wack too
I figure what I present above is something that can well be agreed to be a universal minimum, IE, the PC on the side of deck cannons is supervising NPCs, etc.
 

Lannis

You've yeed your last haw
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My general and impromptu rule of thumb is one to steer and 1-2 per mast (depending on size) if your goal is simply to have the ship move. This is lowballing for larger ships and thus likely implies some NPC support, but I think it's an appropriate number considering the server population. Manning cannons is another story- I don't particularly endorse the use of NPCs on serious weaponry, and as Cap just mentioned, cannons are pretty whack anyway.
I neither support nor see the point in NPC armies- the fight's going to end up being a skirmish between PCs anyway, isn't going to play like a major battle.
 
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