Medieval & Fantasy Minecraft Roleplaying

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NPC Sailors and NPC Armies

pyrocide

The Mogul of Cromarcky
I don't like them, and would only ever agree to ones that are completely non-essential to the rp at hand. Deckhands that only swab the deck or pull the oars are alright, but certainly not any firing the cannons, steering the boat, or otherwise fighting my hypothetical crew.
 

FrostGuardian

Lord of Altera
Legend
FrostGuardian
FrostGuardian
Legend
In all seriousness, I'm pretty sure what Wallins proposed was just a general rule of thumb, something to provide a very rudimentary estimate before delving in to make the more accurate calculation. As long as the organization in question is reasonably on the mark, I'll give them a pass. They say they have a large army in the hundreds or thousands, and they've got a big town with a decent population and adequate supplies? Fine by me. It doesn't affect the actual outcome of an engagement. Engagements are still determined by just the PCs. The hidden population is just a bragging right, and to make our characters sound like less of a dumb ass when talking about how glorious their city of ten people is. And hey, if the guys that claimed to have an army of a thousand strong still loses to the guy with five hundred, they take the burden of embarrassment for losing.

I don't like hyper-realism, or unnecessary scrutiny. I mean, what the hell happened to us being fantasy? Jesus. Just don't go around giving Michael Phelps a run for his money in heavy cavalry armor or something. We wouldn't have half the pretty stuff on this server if we were strictly medieval. Say good bye to every decent looking ship on this server, or any mildly cool looking set of armor. I'm not saying to not do your research and spend time learning how different mechanisms, weapons, or general lifestyle habits worked at the time. I encourage it. Hell, that's what I do most of the time. That's what you should be doing, especially if your character is an artisan of some sort. But I'm getting off track.

Ultimately, I'm just here to have fun and build big things because I'm not compensating for anything at all. We're talking about Minecraft and roleplay. I live in a two hundred plot fortress that was largely built only by me (credit to Elz and Tempy_ for amazing help with interiors though). I dunno about you (and by you, I mean whoever has actually bothered to read this), I find it just a bit more ideal to assume I had some NPC help with that, without having to worry about building a mausoleum or whatever the hell.

Now to actually address the whole sailor/temp army NPC question. It's already been said that to properly man a ship at a one to one ratio at what it'd require in real life is unfeasible. Ideally, there should be at least one PC to every crucial position. I can mostly agree with what Naelwyn proposed on the first page. Having a guy at every cannon is never going to happen. A PC would collectively embody the other NPCs at work. These NPCs have no impact on the outcome of a battle. They're just there to make things actually work in the first place. For the most part, they wouldn't be roleplayed at all. They would just have an assumed existence. I don't see a problem with NPCs working the cannons, as long as there are real players in that position already. But being a naval gunner does require quite a bit of training, so the overall effectiveness of the cannons would only correspond to, say, the skill of the least skilled PC manning them. That aside, a lot of these broadside engagements were determined by who could get the drop on who, the quality of the artillery, and the movements that the captain decided upon (who without a doubt would be a PC). This is assuming that the naval battle is a straight up cannon volley anyways. A lot of the times it was just boarding the other ship (which, to me, would be a lot more fun to RP and is less complicated).

I dunno, I'm just rambling.
 

bodejodel

Reaching for the Heavens
Retired Staff
bodejodel
bodejodel
I have not, at any point in this thread, argued that people cannot have NPCs, I have argued specifically that 100/PC is not currently logical or sensible for any single town on the server because none are even built to house that many people.
Indeed. Even HR "only" has houses with room for beds for 100 persons, either NPC or PC.
We could probably house over a 100 more if we include the inns, hospital and barracks. Another 100~200 can come from the houses in our other holdings. Still no room for 100/PC though. ;)

We also have a sick amount of ships (mainly because we enjoy building them), but we have never used them due to the lack of crew. The biggest ones are also quite big, even for very late 15th century standards, but building to scale with 1 meter blocks is kind of hard.
Realisticly a city like HR could not even man 1 of those, even with a 100/PC ratio.
 

DraconDarknight

Lord of Altera
DraconDarknight
DraconDarknight
My general and impromptu rule of thumb is one to steer and 1-2 per mast (depending on size) if your goal is simply to have the ship move. This is lowballing for larger ships and thus likely implies some NPC support, but I think it's an appropriate number considering the server population. Manning cannons is another story- I don't particularly endorse the use of NPCs on serious weaponry, and as Cap just mentioned, cannons are pretty whack anyway.
I neither support nor see the point in NPC armies- the fight's going to end up being a skirmish between PCs anyway, isn't going to play like a major battle.
You know the cannon problem was kinda self made by the server...

I wasn't there but I heard about a ballista doing an amount of damage it could NEVER do at all just because it rolled a 20. - Heck ship hulls are freaking thick.
So, If what I heard back then is true the damage said ballista did is equivalent to, a medieval cannon causing a nuclear explosion on cannon ball impact.

The damage that ballista did happened to an extent not even a roman balistae could have done btw, and they wee much stronger than their medieval equivalents.

So yeah its a server made problem.

naval cannons did btw exist in the medieval for everyone who doesn't know
 

Cap

Lord of Altera
Legend
You know the cannon problem was kinda self made by the server...

I wasn't there but I heard about a ballista doing an amount of damage it could NEVER do at all just because it rolled a 20. - Heck ship hulls are freaking thick.
So, If what I heard back then is true the damage said ballista did is equivalent to, a medieval cannon causing a nuclear explosion on cannon ball impact.

The damage that ballista did happened to an extent not even a roman balistae could have done btw, and they wee much stronger than their medieval equivalents.

So yeah its a server made problem.

naval cannons did btw exist in the medieval for everyone who doesn't know
it was a flaming ballista bolt arcing into the ship's powder store
 

pyrocide

The Mogul of Cromarcky
... just because it rolled a 20.
Dear gods don't get me started on this subject. Topic for a different thread, but long story short I absolutely hate anytime there is a "roll" asked for, when we have no mechanical system to back up said roll.

edit: I have no issue with whatever this example was talking about with the flaming ballista bolt. I just hate rolling in general.
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
You know the cannon problem was kinda self made by the server...

I wasn't there but I heard about a ballista doing an amount of damage it could NEVER do at all just because it rolled a 20. - Heck ship hulls are freaking thick.
So, If what I heard back then is true the damage said ballista did is equivalent to, a medieval cannon causing a nuclear explosion on cannon ball impact.

The damage that ballista did happened to an extent not even a roman balistae could have done btw, and they wee much stronger than their medieval equivalents.

So yeah its a server made problem.

naval cannons did btw exist in the medieval for everyone who doesn't know
Well, yeah, I guess-
it was a flaming ballista bolt arcing into the ship's powder store
That'll do.
 

mokwar

Yū Yi
Evil
mokwar
mokwar
Evil
Dear gods don't get me started on this subject. Topic for a different thread, but long story short I absolutely hate anytime there is a "roll" asked for, when we have no mechanical system to back up said roll.

edit: I have no issue with whatever this example was talking about with the flaming ballista bolt. I just hate rolling in general.
When I use roll, I generally discuss the outcome with the person
For example
mokwar rolled a 15 out of 20
Player: So I guess that would mean you would ____
me: Yeah, but take it in consideration that my character is ____

and etc.
Leaning to much on the roll system, I do not like, but it is a good starter as foundation for talking it through.
 

pyrocide

The Mogul of Cromarcky
When I use roll, I generally discuss the outcome with the person
For example
mokwar rolled a 15 out of 20
Player: So I guess that would mean you would ____
me: Yeah, but take it in consideration that my character is ____

and etc.
Leaning to much on the roll system, I do not like, but it is a good starter as foundation for talking it through.
Talking it through is what we already do, the dice simply add (most of the time illogical) randomness to the proceedings, when there is no system involved.

Short example: On a different server years back, I was playing a homeless peasant. A staff member from the server (who played a vampire) decided to attack me. On said server, "rolling" is the norm, but you can roleplay without dice if both sides agreed. I asked to skip the rolls, because in my head I was going to auto-lose, obviously. He denied, so we had to roll. My peasant ended up defeating the vampire, because I just so happened to roll higher than him pretty much every time. Had there been some kind of system, like how DnD/WoD/GURPS/ect has, then even with my better rolls the vampire should have won because of much greater stats, but their server had no such system, as this server also lacks any kind of system.

If there's going to be rolls, there needs to be a system to back up those rolls to make sense of what the roll means. If all you're going to do is roll then come up with what the roll means, just skip the dice altogether and just say what your character does.

Sorry to keep derailing the thread. to put it back on:

I really don't like when town owners claim their guards are filled with NPCs as a reason to say you can't break the law without being caught, or can't break someone out of jail because there are npc guards all over it, or other similar issues. Seen that more often in the past year, not fond of it at all.
 

Raykaystar

Lord of Altera
Talking it through is what we already do, the dice simply add (most of the time illogical) randomness to the proceedings, when there is no system involved.

Short example: On a different server years back, I was playing a homeless peasant. A staff member from the server (who played a vampire) decided to attack me. On said server, "rolling" is the norm, but you can roleplay without dice if both sides agreed. I asked to skip the rolls, because in my head I was going to auto-lose, obviously. He denied, so we had to roll. My peasant ended up defeating the vampire, because I just so happened to roll higher than him pretty much every time. Had there been some kind of system, like how DnD/WoD/GURPS/ect has, then even with my better rolls the vampire should have won because of much greater stats, but their server had no such system, as this server also lacks any kind of system.

If there's going to be rolls, there needs to be a system to back up those rolls to make sense of what the roll means. If all you're going to do is roll then come up with what the roll means, just skip the dice altogether and just say what your character does.

Sorry to keep derailing the thread. to put it back on:

I really don't like when town owners claim their guards are filled with NPCs as a reason to say you can't break the law without being caught, or can't break someone out of jail because there are npc guards all over it, or other similar issues. Seen that more often in the past year, not fond of it at all.
I feel like rolls are good when players disagree. Talking through it is great, but if two people disagree, rolling is a good option.
 

Cukie1

Essentially a Chihuahua
Aware Single
Legend
Pronouns
She/Her
Cukie1
Cukie1
Single
Talking it through is what we already do, the dice simply add (most of the time illogical) randomness to the proceedings, when there is no system involved.

Short example: On a different server years back, I was playing a homeless peasant. A staff member from the server (who played a vampire) decided to attack me. On said server, "rolling" is the norm, but you can roleplay without dice if both sides agreed. I asked to skip the rolls, because in my head I was going to auto-lose, obviously. He denied, so we had to roll. My peasant ended up defeating the vampire, because I just so happened to roll higher than him pretty much every time. Had there been some kind of system, like how DnD/WoD/GURPS/ect has, then even with my better rolls the vampire should have won because of much greater stats, but their server had no such system, as this server also lacks any kind of system.

If there's going to be rolls, there needs to be a system to back up those rolls to make sense of what the roll means. If all you're going to do is roll then come up with what the roll means, just skip the dice altogether and just say what your character does.

Sorry to keep derailing the thread. to put it back on:

I really don't like when town owners claim their guards are filled with NPCs as a reason to say you can't break the law without being caught, or can't break someone out of jail because there are npc guards all over it, or other similar issues. Seen that more often in the past year, not fond of it at all.
I usually say guards roam a certain city, for example like they did in Avignon (since the PC guards couldn't log in all the time), but them being NPCs means they won't stop you from committing crime. At that point I'd say the guards weren't on that patrol as the IC excuse. With NPC involvement there has to be leeway. It can't be NPC guards to prevent crime because you don't want crime. If that's going to be the case, best to just make the region peaceful. Personally, I like seeing people undergo crime RPs, but that's another story for another thread.
 

DraconDarknight

Lord of Altera
DraconDarknight
DraconDarknight
it was a flaming ballista bolt arcing into the ship's powder store
Makes almost zero difference (see below)

Best a ballista can actually do is shoot enough arrows into a ship hull for the ship to loose balance bad enough to capsize.
A roman ballistae on the other hand could actually shoot down a mast.
Ships were in general more sturdy (and fireproof) than people may believe. Heck even cannons ween't just ripping them apart.

It is only nowadays that, especially destroyers, would sink almost instantly due to having no armor at all (because seriously there is no way they'd have enough armor to stop supercavitating torpedoes), which is what might give people the impression that ships are rather easy to sink. - the only ship i'd personally say can survive even a WWII torpedo is the Independance class as it is a trimaran - that is assuming one of the bouys is what gets hit though. (Doesn't account for planned armor and anti torpedo measurement upgrades to the ship)

That'll do.
I'd fully agree if the powder was exposed on deck (but then it wouldn't have been able to demolish the entire rudder mechanism + Rudder itself then). - then again I wasn't there. I just heard from several different people about rapid reload ballistas and ships getting one shot by said phantasmagorial contraptions.
A single Bolts weights around 26 kg btw.
 

Cap

Lord of Altera
Legend
Makes almost zero difference (see below)

Best a ballista can actually do is shoot enough arrows into a ship hull for the ship to loose balance bad enough to capsize.
A roman ballistae on the other hand could actually shoot down a mast.
Ships were in general more sturdy (and fireproof) than people may believe. Heck even cannons ween't just ripping them apart.

It is only nowadays that, especially destroyers, would sink almost instantly due to having no armor at all (because seriously there is no way they'd have enough armor to stop supercavitating torpedoes), which is what might give people the impression that ships are rather easy to sink. - the only ship i'd personally say can survive even a WWII torpedo is the Independance class as it is a trimaran - that is assuming one of the bouys is what gets hit though. (Doesn't account for planned armor and anti torpedo measurement upgrades to the ship)



I'd fully agree if the powder was exposed on deck (but then it wouldn't have been able to demolish the entire rudder mechanism + Rudder itself then). - then again I wasn't there. I just heard from several different people about rapid reload ballistas and ships getting one shot by said phantasmagorial contraptions.
A single Bolts weights around 26 kg btw.
1. anhald ballistae ARE roman ballistae
2. i know ships are sturdy
3. why are modern ships and torpedoes relevant
4. the powder store was open from above. we didn't penetrate to it, we landed a lucky shot in it
5. afaik it didn't destroy the rudder, it got lodged in the rudder mechanism and the broken rudder destroyed itself when used
 

DraconDarknight

Lord of Altera
DraconDarknight
DraconDarknight
1. anhald ballistae ARE roman ballistae
2. i know ships are sturdy
3. why are modern ships and torpedoes relevant
4. the powder store was open from above. we didn't penetrate to it, we landed a lucky shot in it
5. afaik it didn't destroy the rudder, it got lodged in the rudder mechanism and the broken rudder destroyed itself when used
Ad1: in which ccase you could have shot down a mast - but not a rudder.
Ad2:I take the contradiction to said agencies is obvious then.
Ad3: because they are what makes people think ships sink like no tomorrow.
Ad4 -5: Sorry but let me get this straight...
The burning bolt that hit the powder storage which should cause an epic explosion got lodged in the rudder mechanism which caused in term its destruction upon usage...?

-> Headache level rising.

Anyway I'll leave this discussion to those who were there.
My points were :
- strange things have happened there which should be avoided in the future - not like we can change what has happened anyway.
- the 'whacky cannons' are a problem resulting from said events.
 

Cap

Lord of Altera
Legend
Ad1: in which ccase you could have shot down a mast - but not a rudder.
Ad2: because they are what makes people think ships sink like no tomorrow.
Ad3 -5: Sorry but let me get this straight...
The burning bolt that hit the powder storage which should cause an epic explosion got lodged in the rudder mechanism which caused in term its destruction upon usage...?

-> Headache level rising.
we fired between eight to twelve bolts and two did actual damage beyond tearing sails and setting them on fire

the bolt that disabled the rudder and the bolt that lit the powder stores on fire were not the same bolts

they weren't even fired at the same ships
 

Rygan

Deathblade
Evil
Rygan_Deathblade
Rygan_Deathblade
Evil
NPCs who don't do anything don't effect me so I don't particularly care. I'm of the opinion that they shouldn't be allowed to aid in firing cannons or maintaining the ship.
 

Heie

Lord of Altera
Lore Staff
Legend
Staff
1. anhald ballistae ARE roman ballistae
2. i know ships are sturdy
3. why are modern ships and torpedoes relevant
4. the powder store was open from above. we didn't penetrate to it, we landed a lucky shot in it
5. afaik it didn't destroy the rudder, it got lodged in the rudder mechanism and the broken rudder destroyed itself when used
Point 5: stuff like it getting stuck in rudder mechanism then destroying rudder would have been nice info when we were actually rping it. Those on board were basically told, well they rolled 20, your rudder is destroyed.

Edit: p.s. this is a thank you for your clarification, not a rant.
 

Cap

Lord of Altera
Legend
Point 5: stuff like it getting stuck in rudder mechanism then destroying rudder would have been nice info when we were actually rping it. Those on board were basically told, well they rolled 20, your rudder is destroyed.
that's lannis' fault not mine

getting stuck in the rudder mech is just me assuming btw, idk any other way a rudder could get diddled by a ballista
 
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