Regarding magic-based events V realism-based events

[kaza125]

This will just be me just giving my view on events in general, in no way am I trying to be rude here, just a player sharing his views

So I've been on this server for 2 years, I've enjoyed my time on here mainly to the great events we've had, Game of Crowns, Corruption etc.
I believe at the moment (Not entirely sure) that the server is pulling away from magic, which I think is a great idea, especially with events and here's why.
I feel like with the magical grounded events, everything feels like less of a threat because there is some stones that will save us, a magical sword, just a deus-ex that really pulls out interest into the story. To me, the two things that make a good event is the storytelling and the level of player involvement.

With storytelling you want the reader/player to feel as if there is serious threat, there are consequences to their actions, and they must be solved by the will of the players. Look at the Game of Crowns for example, a war between Houses, and the winner gets the crown of Altera. The entire concept is realism driven, and that's what made it so thrilling to be involved. Every player felt like they had a impact, being a soldier or one of the leaders, the choices you made, no matter how little your character was could make an impact. Just the idea of a House, after defeating the others, and the ruling over them is great, real threat, great player involvement, not solved by Deus-Ex.

Now I've only read briefly about this new event, the thing with the wards that protect us from the bad stuff. I've probably just simplified that there, but when you have this sort of story, where there's a threat, and it is solved by magical stones (Deus-Ex), the threat is less threatening, the story is less interesting, the player impact by all characters is numbered. I mean the recent bandit events I swear I've enjoyed more than most of the events I played on here, because player involvement was the grounding of it, aswell as realism, there was serious threat, and only to the will of players could it be solved, no stones, or spells, just themselves. That to me is what makes a great event, and I hope upcoming campaigns follow this type of format.

Again, I have a great appreciation for hard work that goes into the lore and the events, just giving my view on it

 

[Zenrak]

 

[kaza125]

 

[kaza125]

Oh how can I move this to general discussion? Didn't realize I posted in the wrong sub.

 

[Balatro]

It's really not this sort of non-bails review helps build understanding as to what our player base wants to play.

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[kaza125]

It's really not this sort of non-bails review helps build understanding as to what our player base wants to play.

Thanks for the thoughts.

He was joking

 

[Zenrak]

It's really not this sort of non-bails review helps build understanding as to what our player base wants to play.

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[Immerael]

I've been here for about a year and half and I have to thoroughly disagree. The overwhelming majority of RP on the server in this past year has been grit Game of Thrones style RP, at least among the RP veterans. Before the current campaign we had no real fantasy aspects other than races. Magic didn't exist for all intents and purposes unless you sought it out in Vigil's Rest, supernatural threats didn't happen unless you left the Northern Kingdoms. It was all player based and grounded in that solid realism.

The recent campaign is the first time since I've joined the server that we had magical and fantastic things that you can't find in the real world. As for consequences to player actions if we don't finish the stone quest and Divines don't Deus Ex Machina some in for us the entire player base will eventually die when undead or worse things find us in our new land. This is a direct result of player actions removing the stones without thinking and then leaving the campaign unfinished. I would say that's a heck of a consequence.

 

[Friosis]

I'd like magic to pull away from standard troupes like the deus ex machina and be more grounded in what makes rp fun for everyone. If the magic follows a strict set of rules everyone can understand and use in their rp, it allows it to be fun without having to be realistic.


The complaints are valid but I don't think the issue is that magical events need to end. I think it's a mishandling of the magic in events.

Magical events can be just as much fun as fully realistical ones.


I don't agree with the movement away from magic either, it only increases the cheap feeling of deus ex when it happens if only a few people or events have it.

 

[Deleted member 12912]

I personally can say that I've been a bit disappointed with the level of events/happenings on the server. There doesn't be to be much meaningful plot-changing roleplay anymore, partly because I feel a lot of the politics has been lost to the server. I know there aren't regions just yet (which is an issue in itself), but you'd imagine that with a new map there would be an explosion of activity/involvement due to hype. I don't particularly have a stance on whether or not I'd like to server to go more fantasy or less; however, I do know that a lot of the more divine/magical content on the server has always been exclusive to a small group of individuals.

 

[bodejodel]

I have never enjoyed magical aspects in games. That is, bigger forms of aspects. I like enhancements of equipment and signs like in The Witcher games, but that's about it. I never enjoy playing mage characters or games with more powerful magic.
To be honest, I haven't really experienced magic here because I never RP'd with a magus or actively involved myself with magically oriented big events because I try avoid them.

Also, what's this Deus Ex magic you speak of? I only played the very first game at the time it came out and I can't remember much of it.

I personally can say that I've been a bit disappointed with the level of events/happenings on the server. There doesn't be to be much meaningful plot-changing roleplay anymore, partly because I feel a lot of the politics has been lost to the server. I know there aren't regions just yet (which is an issue in itself), but you'd imagine that with a new map there would be an explosion of activity/involvement due to hype. I don't particularly have a stance on whether or not I'd like to server to go more fantasy or less; however, I do know that a lot of the more divine/magical content on the server has always been exclusive to a small group of individuals.

That depends on where you are.
Around the Hawklight camp, manner events have taken place and not a day goes by without roleplay there. I believe Anhald is hosting a somewhat bigger event at the moment. Really, roleplay is what you make of it yourself.

 

[The Courier]

I just want magic to make my weapons and armor have cool aesthetics. I'm all about fashion souls. Otherwise it'd be kinda neat to manipulate the world and have spells that aren't just "Lightning Bolt!"

As for magical events, for the love of God I adore them. Nothing gets my hype meter going than being a realistic medieval knight who is fighting against impossible odds and magnificent creatures. Fighting off Visage's dragon form and his buddy in the Lavoyard Court Room was one of my highlights for this server. Trying to power row away from Shoreless to get back to the Lavoyard Ship was one as well. It was this feeling of just knowing the world is much bigger than you, but you can fight it. I haven't seen any 'deus ex magicka' myself. Unless you want to say that Gods giving you God killing weapons makes an ending that is Deus Ex Magicka.

I want more fantasy aspects. As this is a medieval and fantasy server. Magic is a high part of fantasy obviously and shouldn't be cast aside because 'it makes things too easy'.

 

[Friosis]

Deus ex machina is a term from latin in where a god is lowered from a machine into a play. Often to solve issues for the heroes.

It's now used to describe a situation where a plot is resolved by a outside force out of no where. Such as a god giving someone a ultra God sword to kill the villain, or a character appearing out of nowhere to save the heroes with no foreshadowing.

 

[Immerael]

Deus ex machina is a term from latin in where a god is lowered from a machine into a play. Often to solve issues for the heroes.

It's now used to describe a situation where a plot is resolved by a outside force out of no where. Such as a god giving someone a ultra God sword to kill the villain, or a character appearing out of nowhere to save the heroes with no foreshadowing.

To further it has since been applied to anything that hand waves away problems that the characters could not otherwise solve themselves. A good example would be the Sonic Screwdriver from Dr. Who which used to have new and exotic abilities every time the writers wrote themselves into a hole. Another is Superman during his early days, when he would constantly gain new powers to overcome foes.

At risk of sounding elitist movie critic, anytime something goes Deus Ex the quality of the entire project is in the toilet.

 

[bodejodel]

And here I was, thinking you were talking about the game, where hardly anything magical happened.

 

[K9]

At risk of sounding elitist movie critic, anytime something goes Deus Ex the quality of the entire project is in the toilet.

But.... That's just not true. That's like saying "oh, well, they broke the line - movie's ruined". It's not. Breaking the line can be done for various reasons, and so long as the Director of Photography understands these rules, it can (and very often is) successful! A God From The Machine can be used as an excellent storytelling device, it's a matter of usage. Elitist movie critic =/= one coloured paint and a paint brush.

Also, there's an incessant need to used a Deus Ex Machina as a reason to explain everything, especially when it's explicitly NOT so. It's a fancy phrase, and boy do we love to use fancy words and phrases!

-K9

 

[Friosis]

But.... That's just not true. That's like saying "oh, well, they broke the line - movie's ruined". It's not. Breaking the line can be done for various reasons, and so long as the Director of Photography understands these rules, it can (and very often is) successful! A God From The Machine can be used as an excellent storytelling device, it's a matter of usage. Elitist movie critic =/= one coloured paint and a paint brush.

Also, there's an incessant need to used a Deus Ex Machina as a reason to explain everything, especially when it's explicitly NOT so. It's a fancy phrase, and boy do we love to use fancy words and phrases!

-K9

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools

 

[Rygan]

 

[pyrocide]

A God From The Machine can be used as an excellent storytelling device, it's a matter of usage.

It's actually considered pretty much universally that deus ex machina is a bad storytelling device. It removes choice, consequence, and the possibility of failure from the characters. Even the definition states that it is, "an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel." Contrived being a key word here.

Most critics would agree with Immerael , Deus Ex'ing a prjoect or event generally weakens the overall story. From Wikipedia: "It is generally deemed undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of creativity on the part of the author. The reasons for this are that it does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic (although it is sometimes deliberately used to do this) and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely, though perhaps more palatable, ending."

 

[K9]

It's actually considered pretty much universally that deus ex machina is a bad storytelling device. It removes choice, consequence, and the possibility of failure from the characters. Even the definition states that it is, "an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel." Contrived being a key word here.

Most critics would agree with Immerael , Deus Ex'ing a prjoect or event generally weakens the overall story. From Wikipedia: "It is generally deemed undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of creativity on the part of the author. The reasons for this are that it does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic (although it is sometimes deliberately used to do this) and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely, though perhaps more palatable, ending."

Couple of quick things. I'm not saying "Yes, Deus Ex Machina is a good way for telling a story", I'm saying "It can be used". The issue with Immaereal's post is not that he says "Deus Ex'ing a story can it ruin it", it is his statement of

At risk of sounding elitist movie critic, anytime something goes Deus Ex the quality of the entire project is in the toilet.

By saying anytime you immediately negate any possibility of there being some sort of value to a Deus Ex Machina, which is wrong to the core.

To quote O wonderful Wikipedia as you yourself have: "it can be intended to allow a story to continue when the writer has "painted himself into a corner" and sees no other way out, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or as a comedic device".

There are too many variables within any storytelling device to say "it is always bad" or "it is always good". Most critics? Perhaps. I'd certainly hope that most critics wouldn't be as brash as to ignore the virtues of a film or story because of a particular use of a story telling device.

I stand by my point

A God From The Machine can be used as an excellent storytelling device, it's a matter of usage.

To summarise: Deus Ex Machina = mostly bad, but CAN be good.

-K9