[Suggestion] Down with the magic money (Yes this is an economy thread)

#1
Solus Ced ptiber Elz Archbishop @ all the staff I forgot
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Well I wanted to do this for a while now but never really had the time. Even now I will keep it rather brief.

Imho voting money is the poison, of the already desolate economy this server has. Yes there will be arguments like 'we are a RP server we need no economy' now -

But then I have to ask: Why bother with money at all then and not just give everyone creative mixed with a plot plugin so no one can damage the others builds for the lolz? - That would even help people build their RP resorts a lot faster.

The specific problem I have with voting money is that it is pumping in TONS of money a week (8400 per Player - or assuming 30 voting players 252k) What seems not much at first is actually a lot, as there are no adequate money sinks as described by MRPolo13 in a different thread.

Now what can we do against it?
First off remove all magic-money rewards, people don't have to work for from the game.- the Cobble exchange, if that even still exists, is imho fine as those amounts are a total minimum compared to voting money and have furthermore to be worked for. - might become a future problem though.

Second, since now the argument will come that people will stop voting when they don't get a reward, said reward should be changed to Diamonds (or any valuable item of your choice).

While this will indeed decrease the value of whatever item you choose to reward people with, it would still be a lot less damaging to the economy than the assumed 252k of magic money that get pumped into it for no effort at all :)

Third:
As a result money will be way harder to obtain, and people will actually have to work for it. Thus if they want stuff they have to move the currently dormant amounts or spend them on money sinks - both benefiting the economy in different ways.

Recap:
- Magic money is bad
- Magic money reward should be changed to valuable in game items.
 
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#3
>this argument is made by someone whose house has probably the largest funds on the server and doesn't have to worry about money
And a good 80 - 90% of that actually come from trading rather than transmuting air to emeralds.
In other words, even if it has been a while, at least at some point that money has actually moved between players, rather than being created out of thin air.
 

Cymic_

Lord of Altera
#4
Not everyone votes 24/7 every day of the week. Maybe one person does this as shown by the list if top voters. Even then, 36k (1200 x 30) still isn't a huge amount of money to the people who are slaves to their region.
 

Cukie1

Essentially a Chihuahua
Retired Council Member
#5
Problem I see with this is that, very rarely do people really ask for something in trade chat. They mine it themselves and will often times only use trade chat when they don't want to do the work or d ont know where to find what they want. There's no circulation to the economy. I'm not sure if this would create a circulation, but with there being the plot and travel costs, they're at least two sinks. And while travel only charges a minimum, I'd say it has some sort of influence on that. How do you think this issue can be solved?
 

BoredBrit

Lord of Altera
Legend
BoredBritishGuy
BoredBritishGuy
Legend
#6
And a good 80 - 90% of that actually come from trading rather than transmuting air to emeralds.
In other words, even if it has been a while, at least at some point that money has actually moved between players, rather than being created out of thin air.
i remember hearing it being due to money being alot easier to get in the older times, and that old money wins

DOWN WITH THE BOURGEOIS
 
#7
Not everyone votes 24/7 every day of the week. Maybe one person does this as shown by the list if top voters. Even then, 36k (1200 x 30) still isn't a huge amount of money to the people who are slaves to their region.
There is in all likelihood also more than 30 people voting. Even if its just 36k though, its still far more damaging than giving out diamonds.

Just imagine the US would print 36K USD for 75% of its population every day - Even the US would be ruined rather fast that way.
And no, book money doesn't count. I am talking actually existing bills and coins here ;)

Problem I see with this is that, very rarely do people really ask for something in trade chat. They mine it themselves and will often times only use trade chat when they don't want to do the work or d ont know where to find what they want. There's no circulation to the economy. I'm not sure if this would create a circulation, but with there being the plot and travel costs, they're at least two sinks. And while travel only charges a minimum, I'd say it has some sort of influence on that. How do you think this issue can be solved?
Pretty much what I said - you replace the magic money with something else and then you need to wait.
At some point people wanting to make money will be forced to either work for it through things like the cobble vendor or selling it to other players.
The reason the economy still profits through this despite a very small amount of magic money is being generated is that in exchange the amount of available materials gets reduced.

While sounding unrealistic atm, people will be pretty much forced to make that money move again after a while - it is a slow process though.
I don't think much of the plot money sink btw as it will eventually stop doing its job.
The planned return of the auction house will help with that too.

i remember hearing it being due to money being alot easier to get in the older times, and that old money wins

DOWN WITH THE BOURGEOIS
There was also no voting money back then, you had to go dig for your money for hours instead of just typing your name into a text box - I see a connection here :D
The money actually flowed through that, as people would often use enchanted picks, they'd buy or had them repaired for money.

I know this so well because most of my own money (not visible as I emeralded it) actually came from that.
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
#8
We need sinks more than we need to cut off flows. Even now I could drastically outearn voting nearly trivially.

HW lacks any kind of resource sink. Combined with 5+ years of people doing things, full region materials refunding, and lack of competitive advantage, there's no real reason to see trading happen.

There's nothing to really /do/ with a huge glut and excess of materials or money if one /doesn't/ want to make a region.

That's why my proposal for the spawn influence stuff involved being able to contribute resources/funding in exchange for increased control of the political structure of spawn, for example.
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
#9
That said, you may have unintentionally suggested something whose implications may horrify you.

Just throw out all the money. Allow building in creative, plots scaled with number of people involved in the town, can only be involved in one town. Stop spending the effort refreshing resource worlds, embrace a fully-creative building mindset and zero in the vision and focus on events and RP.

Then money/resources are solely used in terms of acquiring RP advantages or items.

Alienates a portion of the base but focuses on a niche demographic instead of keeping some people around only vaguely happy - like continual decisions made about PvP or contestation.
 

Hellian

Legend of Altera
#10
Edit: took me a half hour to write this, so two posts were made in the mean time... As I pointed out at the bottom, we would need a resource sink. Perhaps the server could bid at auctions up to half the richest player's wealth or something of the sort, on more common items. This is assuming auctions get used...

Edit 2: Ok, auction is happening... didn't know that... So i guess that's part one....


I can attest that no one ever wants to buy stuff. I spent half of February break mining on this server. The only thing I really made money on was a god apple that I happened across. The I god a ton of iron, and coal, and redstone, and gold, and I had obsidian (finally sold it), and even enchanted books. I'm sure some of you remember my posting about it in the trade chat, but i rarely got an answer.

So voting is the only way for me to make money at a decent rate, and I rarely vote... usually cause i forget...


So i suggest the following, if we wan to recover the server economy that doesn't actually have much purpose:

1) Give it a purpose. Nobility and regions are well and good, but not everyone has a character that wants such a thing. Those are things heavy in RP, and aren't much of an incentive.
Now, that purpose could very well be that the server buys items, in certain amounts (say a full stack of diamonds, for far below that price listed on the forum page). Or, it could be that people with IC jobs actually get hired to do things. Black smiths are one thing, but I'm referring to tailors and carpenters and such. Or, perhaps, we could have monthly auctions for goods, which would give incentive people to buy and sell goods in friendly competition. I personally like the third one. Regardless of what it is, if a real incentive is put out for buying and selling things, then money will likely flow again.

2) Reduce the voting rewards. It is necessary to prevent heavy inflation. If the first step is met, than voting money would have less of a purpose. To avoid voting losing incentive, I recommend dwarven lexicons a system of points that can be used in the shophub to buy things, rather than radients. While the shophub is all well and good, and can function as a money sinks, the only thing of immediate use I saw was buying extra /home(s). Otherwise, its flying and horse stuff. Improve those items, and sent up a point system in exchange for votes, lessening the radiant reward for voting (new player will likely need it at first). I have no idea if the shophub points thing is even possible, but the reward needs to be reduced to prevent inflation.

3) Set up a better travel system (hold on, let me explain). Personally I liked the old system for economic reason, but for rp, this new one is great. So i suggest a land warp and a ship warp that cost 2 or three times as much as the normal /travel but can take you anywhere. That way, I is easier to reach chest shops that have things that you can't find near you.. I spent a grand trying to go get food at one point (granted i did stave to death halfway there, but hey) cause the shop at spawn went away, and i needed something more inventory friendly than cookies.
This has two purposes. One is that it would in-courage the use of money sinks, helping to counteract inflation. Two, it would be more convenient for literally everyone. And three, it should help drive up chest shop sales in certain areas.

4) More and better villager shops. With these, players can exchange less desired items for small amounts of radients, and rarer, but still useless items for somewhat more. Likewise, you could have villagers selling rare items for large amounts, creating another money sink that people may wish to use. This one is less needed, but it is an idea.

5) Alright, this one works in my head, but I'm just taking an educated guess. Switch off the emerald. Ok, you calm now? IRL, we have assigned gold a value based on literally nothing more than it looks nice and is kinda rare. In mc, emerald are l;likewise useless. Presumably, in IRL, the reason gold works is because the value of such gold fluctuates with the economy, and thus remains stable;e. Emerald aren't like that. In fact, gold IRL, is more useful that emeralds in game. So, we either let the price fluctuate (which takes time and math to keep track of), or switch to a different standard. I recommend diamonds. The reason is that they are USEFUL! Someone will be more likely to invest the diamonds into equipment to mine for better items that will bring in more money long term, assuming the rest of this plan is successful. This would increase the buying and selling of goods, and result in a stable economy.

The only problem I foresee, assuming this would work, is that if too many items build up, then there would be a different cause for trading to fall stagnate. I can't think of a god solution sort of having someone go around like an over-zealous Teddy Roosevelt. I'm sure there is one, but it isn't coming to me atm. If one does, I'll put it here.

Someone who actually knows how economies work, did i do good??!!
 
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Immerael

The Shadow Admín
Staff member
#11
If memory servers during the really old system mining a single block of cobblestone in the realllly old system granted .25 rads. At 64 blocks a stack that 16 rads a stack. There are 54 slots in a single doublechest. That results in 864 rads earned per double chest. Then that number only went up on other blocks that were deemed more valuable. Actually double this according to piratepoof.

For example Kvothe has stated in a previous thread about the Hollows he earned 2 million rads from simple mining. Thats Million. This is a process that did not advertise for the server drawing more new folks to it in any describable way. He was granted magic money for an act he would have done anyway to gather materials for his town. Given that most old players have either transferred over regions numerous times or refunded with a profit for multiple world switches now this divide has only grown. (This is not to knock Kvothe in any way he just was the first guy I found in this thread to tell me how much he made
http://hollowworld.co.uk/threads/suggestion-return-of-the-hollows.35824/#post-601552 )

Your suggestion only goes to serve the super wealthy old people of the server and leaves the new players to become essentially work slaves to the older. Mining day in and day out to gather enough cobble to trade in just to be able to travel to another region. Our current trade rate is one emerald/20 rads for a stack of cobble. To travel to one city hub is 100 rads or 5 stacks of cobble they would have to mine everytime. God forbid they ever want to buy fly, a horse, or something. This is a terrible idea for an RP server.
 
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Hellian

Legend of Altera
#12
That said, you may have unintentionally suggested something whose implications may horrify you.

Just throw out all the money. Allow building in creative, plots scaled with number of people involved in the town, can only be involved in one town. Stop spending the effort refreshing resource worlds, embrace a fully-creative building mindset and zero in the vision and focus on events and RP.

Then money/resources are solely used in terms of acquiring RP advantages or items.

Alienates a portion of the base but focuses on a niche demographic instead of keeping some people around only vaguely happy - like continual decisions made about PvP or contestation.
Why should that horrify me, actually? Unless I'm reading it wrong, that idea is a good thing. The only danger would be griefing, though, which is very, very bad. Please, explain. My sleepy brain doesn't understand.
 

BoredBrit

Lord of Altera
Legend
BoredBritishGuy
BoredBritishGuy
Legend
#13
If memory servers during the really old system mining a single block of cobblestone in the realllly old system granted .25 rads. At 64 blocks a stack that 16 rads a stack. There are 54 slots in a single doublechest. That results in 864 rads earned per double chest. Then that number only went up on other blocks that were deemed more valuable. Actually double this according to piratepoof.

For example Kvothe has stated in a previous thread about the Hollows he earned 2 million rads from simple mining. Thats Million. This is a process that did not advertise for the server drawing more new folks to it in any describable way. He was granted magic money for an act he would have done anyway to gather materials for his town. Given that most old players have either transferred over regions numerous times or refunded with a profit for multiple world switches now this divide has only grown. (This is not to knock Kvothe in any way he just was the first guy I found in this thread to tell me how much he made
http://hollowworld.co.uk/threads/suggestion-return-of-the-hollows.35824/#post-601552 )

Your suggestion only goes to server the super wealthy old people of the server and leaves the new players to become essentially work slaves to the newer. Mining day in and day out to gather enough cobble to trade in just to be able to travel to another region. Our current trade rate is one emerald/20 rads for a stack of cobble. To travel to one city hub is 100 rads or 5 stacks of cobble they would have to mine everytime. God forbid they ever want to buy fly, a horse, or something. This is a terrible idea for an RP server.
RISE!!! DOWN WITH THE BOURGEOIS!!!!
 

Naelwyn

Non sum qualis eram
#14
Why should that horrify me, actually? Unless I'm reading it wrong, that idea is a good thing. The only danger would be griefing, though, which is very, very bad. Please, explain. My sleepy brain doesn't understand.
The idea is more 'horrifying' to the 1% which is the connection your tired-brain is missing - that part isn't broadly applied to everyone, just the extremely-wealthy fellow that potentially implied getting rid of money's impact.
 

Cukie1

Essentially a Chihuahua
Retired Council Member
#15
If memory servers during the really old system mining a single block of cobblestone in the realllly old system granted .25 rads. At 64 blocks a stack that 16 rads a stack. There are 54 slots in a single doublechest. That results in 864 rads earned per double chest. Then that number only went up on other blocks that were deemed more valuable. Actually double this according to piratepoof.

For example Kvothe has stated in a previous thread about the Hollows he earned 2 million rads from simple mining. Thats Million. This is a process that did not advertise for the server drawing more new folks to it in any describable way. He was granted magic money for an act he would have done anyway to gather materials for his town. Given that most old players have either transferred over regions numerous times or refunded with a profit for multiple world switches now this divide has only grown. (This is not to knock Kvothe in any way he just was the first guy I found in this thread to tell me how much he made
http://hollowworld.co.uk/threads/suggestion-return-of-the-hollows.35824/#post-601552 )

Your suggestion only goes to server the super wealthy old people of the server and leaves the new players to become essentially work slaves to the newer. Mining day in and day out to gather enough cobble to trade in just to be able to travel to another region. Our current trade rate is one emerald/20 rads for a stack of cobble. To travel to one city hub is 100 rads or 5 stacks of cobble they would have to mine everytime. God forbid they ever want to buy fly, a horse, or something. This is a terrible idea for an RP server.
I have to agree here. While it all sounds fine and dandy in theory, in the end were an RP server, not an economy or prison server where mining would be a requirement. We want new players to RP, And create stories, not slave away in the sorrows for enough fund to go to one town and then realize they don't have enough to continue.
 

Snerus

I didn't do it for the 'Gram, I did it for Gotham
#18
After a quick check, of the roughly 15 people online at present, only one third of them have 100k or more. None of them have radiant accounts worth more than 300k. I doubt their emerald stores are terribly exponential either, but that is just speculation on my part. Most of the 10 players hover at around 0-10k, and I'd dare to say that this is reflective of most of the active playerbase on Hollowworld.

Of the older members, particularly the ones who have voted regularly on the websites, their personal liquid finances are still <500,000 radiants. It's certainly spending cash, but seeing as half the top regular voters either are region owners or contribute to the funding of a region, I'd say they know full well what they want to invest in.

I personally believe the suggested system to be ludicrous. The server is a roleplay server, first and foremost, but the economy set in place is there to promote and give new players incentives to work towards and to contribute to the server not only ICly but OOCly. The voting grant should be viewed more like carnival tickets than actual money. You use it to purchase a stuffed teddy or an extra home when you have enough, but you're here to RP, not to play the stock market. That system isn't a good incentive for player trading, but at this point trade is little more than a convenience. Cities will still rise, despite how silent trade chat is, people will still be able to get places, roads will still be built. The server functions with its economy as a benefit, rather than being broken because it relies on an economy.

The proposition you make would not increase trade, it would stagnate it to utterly nothing. People would mine cobble, and trade it to the vendors, but out of fear of losing their hard-earned income would take great pause before making an exchange. Yes, that bird-head does look nice, but why should I buy it for 3k (ala 2 hours of mining with a premium pickaxe) when I could just smack leaves and get it for free? Furthermore, how could a region grow if its owners need to not only tear cobble out of the ground but also gather materials to build infrastructure on claimed land? If the sorrows is being constantly drained for resources, would that not simply create a lack of resources for the new guy that just popped in six minutes ago? The proposition benefits the wealthy, without incentivizing them to be any more active, while it requires the poorer players to constantly accumulate resources in the Sorrows.

As I say this, Naelwyn has made three posts nailing half the ones I've touched. But I've already come this far, so sorry if this is merely repetition.
 

Legendary Fiction

It took a lot to get here
#19
Minecraft will almost always have a problem with economy straight-out due to the ability to get your own resources no matter who you are - if you have the time. Anyone can start out from ground zero and punch a tree. (At least in the Sorrows.)

When you start to limit things, to create a better working economy, you lose on that freedom.
Limiting by professions can go from mining all the way to tailoring. Only certain people allowed to get raw materials (And even then, only certain raw things - ores vs. wood vs. farms for example being the most strict), or grouping professions such as gather/hunters vs. crafters (crafters being the ones who use the raw materials) vs. trainers, etc.
Then you limit things such as people getting new clothes, or new weapons and armor. Firewood, for the home. Candles. Cooking is one of the few things most every household is able to do without too much limit.

The biggest problems with doing it this way are ~
1. What if the person you shop from is offline? Do you wait, do you find another shop person? Do you install NPC's to sell/buy for you? What about roleplay for things like teaching and training?
2. Gathering takes time. Farming takes time. Crafting takes time. If we did a time=money like one has while at a job, then this is important. This is time away from roleplay. Very few people would happily be a farmer if it meant actually farming for 80% of their time online. They are here to roleplay, not work.
3. What about people who move, or live in more than one place? What about the professions when there are four in one area, and none in another? What if someone in a nice position dies, who takes their place? What about apprentices and such?

I think #2 is the one that is most important in remembering about economy. You need workers, but no one is on 24/7 to sleep, eat, work, and roleplay all on the server. We have things to do IRL - and I know I just say my char is out hunting/sleeping/exploring when I am offline, because otherwise I'd never get to roleplay on her 'offtime.'

I still consider myself new, from late December. I'm fine with my money. I've bought things that are strictly OOC, like 2 more /sethomes. I've bought things that were roleplay-only items such as my bonecarving tools. I've bought from other players - a hunting owl,* sword**, a horse, arrows... I consider my money coming from my hunting skills; the meat, skins, and furs. At the moment, the money *is* from voting, and not from players, because I don't have a consistent way yet to get the meat/skins/furs, nor do I have a PC buyer. I'm not planning on buying a region - I have no need to. I would buy more from other players if I could find them and know what they do ICly - a smith, a fletcher/bowyer, leatherworker.. I would also apprentice under someone if I was able to find them. At the moment, I'm just hunting and being a wanderer.

If I set up trade selling my things, it would be a shop in my town, and not in tradechat. Perhaps this is what others do (along with advertising on forums or whatnot), and is why not many see others trading in tradechat.

*Packman left before I was able to pay him for the owl and the training, but I waited the allotted amount of time before roleplaying with the owl.
**The intention was to pay for the sword, but the smith gave it to Sidaura for no charge; a thing she (and I) am still unsure why about.
 

Cukie1

Essentially a Chihuahua
Retired Council Member
#20
Honestly, the best solutions I can think of, that have been mentioned are:
-Addition of the auction house
-Possibly reducing the vote reward by 25%-50%, but not removing it entirely.