General Suggestion Alchemy Suggestions

[IceandFire]

I posted these in the discord, but I fear they will be drowned out by the SPAM you creatures like to post... so therefore I post here as I am passionate and also extremely annoying about them.

Suggestion 1: Remove Cooldowns for Essences. I understand the need for some of them but its still taking me personally quite a few days to just to make one salve or potion. I am unsure if we are trying to keep the quantity of them down overall, and if that's the case then alright. But personally I think lessening the Cooldowns just a bit more will make the Alchemy skills a bit easier. I make this argument that the cooldowns are lessened specifically due to the fact that they are, for the most part, a one time use item. Compared to, for example, a bow that would last for several uses. The consumable idea behind them being the big factor in this.

Suggestion 2: A system for player autonomy with poisons. Such that they are not so entirely OP, a roll system to resist the effects. To make it fair to the Alchemist - the potency of the potion requires a higher DC to resist. For example, a Poor Potion would require a very low DC success, whereas a Master Level would be extremely high.

Suggestion 3: A Masterwork Possibility: Any Masterworked potion will never run out of uses, it being constantly refillable with ease. IE a non-consumable potion.

Thank you : )

 

[I am Wake]

I wholeheartedly agree with this post.

Edit: but not the below one, sorry

 

[IceandFire]

I would like to add another suggestion on top of the ones I have said above.

Suggestion: Allow the better quality item to win in a face-off, if not going with DC for poisons. For example, if a Master Alchemist were to give someone a poison, and an Adept Alchemist gave them an Anti-Toxin for it - the poison should win out based on quality. It doesn't have to be full effects, but I think scaling the potion is a good idea as the system grows.

 

[JennyBean]

I put this in the discord, but I feel like it would be better here so that others can agree/disagree/suggest changes.

I've seen a lot of players who feel the current alchemy system is unfair to newer players, or players without a lot of radiants. This is entirely due to the availability of Crimsonwart, or lack thereof. The majority of counter-arguments I've seen are either:

"Well, that's the economy."
or
"Alchemy is OP and should be restricted."​

Therefore, I'd like to propose a potential solution that could remedy both problems:

Alchemy Recipes without Crimsonwart. They would not have as strong effects as those with Crimwsonwart but they can be used for flavour or mundane purposes, in a similar way to certain objects from other crafting trees.

These could be:

• Drinks
  • Exotic Teas
  • Coffee
  • Hot Chocolate
  • Alcohol
  • (While I'm aware of talks of a HollowCrafting Cooking tree, there are quite a few drinks that would be closer to alchemy than cooking.)
• Practical mixtures
  • Glue & other adhesives
  • Grease & other lubricants
  • Lantern oil
  • Fertilisers & Plant Feed
• Aesthetic mixtures
  • Make-up
  • Perfumes
  • Paints & Art Supplies
• Science projects for the scholars
  • Baking Soda Volcano, or equivalent
  • Slime & Non-newtonian fluids

Those are the possibilities I can come up with at the moment, but I hope you get the idea.
I understand that this may be quite a bit of work, and I would be more than happy to lend my help if required.
Feedback on this is more than welcome.

 

[I am Wake]

I made a whole code list for teas back ages ago, though I do not know what happened to them all.

I would absolutely, 100%, adore a system where I could lore my own alcohol.
There are many brewers IC that Lana has met. I would absolutely adore that. Alcohol! Imagine getting gifted a fully lore'd bottle of unique wine! That would be so nice!

 

[Jazzper]

Quick note to let folks know this has been seen and will be discussed!

 

[IceandFire]

It has been almost two months since I posted this, so now I do a polite bump.

 

[Somnastra]

I really think alchemy should be a specialization of something more mundane. I really like Wake's suggestion. I know "brewing is a side project and in work" but they really should be the same discipline.

 

[Jazzper]

I put this in the discord, but I feel like it would be better here so that others can agree/disagree/suggest changes.

I've seen a lot of players who feel the current alchemy system is unfair to newer players, or players without a lot of radiants. This is entirely due to the availability of Crimsonwart, or lack thereof. The majority of counter-arguments I've seen are either:

"Well, that's the economy."
or
"Alchemy is OP and should be restricted."​

Therefore, I'd like to propose a potential solution that could remedy both problems:

Alchemy Recipes without Crimsonwart. They would not have as strong effects as those with Crimwsonwart but they can be used for flavour or mundane purposes, in a similar way to certain objects from other crafting trees.

These could be:

• Drinks
  • Exotic Teas
  • Coffee
  • Hot Chocolate
  • Alcohol
  • (While I'm aware of talks of a HollowCrafting Cooking tree, there are quite a few drinks that would be closer to alchemy than cooking.)
• Practical mixtures
  • Glue & other adhesives
  • Grease & other lubricants
  • Lantern oil
  • Fertilisers & Plant Feed
• Aesthetic mixtures
  • Make-up
  • Perfumes
  • Paints & Art Supplies
• Science projects for the scholars
  • Baking Soda Volcano, or equivalent
  • Slime & Non-newtonian fluids

Those are the possibilities I can come up with at the moment, but I hope you get the idea.
I understand that this may be quite a bit of work, and I would be more than happy to lend my help if required.
Feedback on this is more than welcome.

The biggest upcoming change to Alchemy will be the Botany update.
At the start, it will contain:
-Mundane balms, ointments and tinctures for herbal medicine.
-Generic liquid mixtures that can be perfumes, (coloured) oils, adhesives and grease.
-Generic creamy mixtures that can be a more medieval equivalent of lipstick, eyeshadow and blush.
Most of what Jenny suggested in her post will be included, while drinks and alcohol will be a further discussion of cooking vs alchemy (perhaps as a Brewery subclass of Alchemy or something of the sort). If there are further suggestions, please let us know.

I posted these in the discord, but I fear they will be drowned out by the SPAM you creatures like to post... so therefore I post here as I am passionate and also extremely annoying about them.

Suggestion 1: Remove Cooldowns for Essences. I understand the need for some of them but its still taking me personally quite a few days to just to make one salve or potion. I am unsure if we are trying to keep the quantity of them down overall, and if that's the case then alright. But personally I think lessening the Cooldowns just a bit more will make the Alchemy skills a bit easier. I make this argument that the cooldowns are lessened specifically due to the fact that they are, for the most part, a one time use item. Compared to, for example, a bow that would last for several uses. The consumable idea behind them being the big factor in this.

Suggestion 2: A system for player autonomy with poisons. Such that they are not so entirely OP, a roll system to resist the effects. To make it fair to the Alchemist - the potency of the potion requires a higher DC to resist. For example, a Poor Potion would require a very low DC success, whereas a Master Level would be extremely high.

Suggestion 3: A Masterwork Possibility: Any Masterworked potion will never run out of uses, it being constantly refillable with ease. IE a non-consumable potion.

Thank you : )

Cooldowns are a bigger thing that we are still looking into. In some cases they are definitely required, but it might be feasible to decrease them for the less impactful potions without fully throwing off balance.

A roll system for poisons is ongoing and nearly complete. The exact numbers are currently being finalized, with the quality of the craft being vital for the threat it poses.
We won't be going with the 'a higher tier craft automatically beats the lower tier' as that would essentially make lower tier alchemists useless. But poisons and the likes will be more impactful the higher the alchemist's level.

While we are pursuing Masterwork possibilities, we cannot simply make them potions with infinite use as that would definitely break balancing.
If anyone has ideas on how to introduce Masterwork potions otherwise, please let us know.

 

[Fortune]

The biggest upcoming change to Alchemy will be the Botany update.
At the start, it will contain:
-Mundane balms, ointments and tinctures for herbal medicine.
-Generic liquid mixtures that can be perfumes, (coloured) oils, adhesives and grease.
-Generic creamy mixtures that can be a more medieval equivalent of lipstick, eyeshadow and blush.
Most of what Jenny suggested in her post will be included, while drinks and alcohol will be a further discussion of cooking vs alchemy (perhaps as a Brewery subclass of Alchemy or something of the sort). If there are further suggestions, please let us know.

Cooldowns are a bigger thing that we are still looking into. In some cases they are definitely required, but it might be feasible to decrease them for the less impactful potions without fully throwing off balance.

A roll system for poisons is ongoing and nearly complete. The exact numbers are currently being finalized, with the quality of the craft being vital for the threat it poses.
We won't be going with the 'a higher tier craft automatically beats the lower tier' as that would essentially make lower tier alchemists useless. But poisons and the likes will be more impactful the higher the alchemist's level.

While we are pursuing Masterwork possibilities, we cannot simply make them potions with infinite use as that would definitely break balancing.
If anyone has ideas on how to introduce Masterwork potions otherwise, please let us know.

My masterwork idea is to remove the side effects and increase potion longevity by a bit.

 

[IceandFire]

The biggest upcoming change to Alchemy will be the Botany update.
At the start, it will contain:
-Mundane balms, ointments and tinctures for herbal medicine.
-Generic liquid mixtures that can be perfumes, (coloured) oils, adhesives and grease.
-Generic creamy mixtures that can be a more medieval equivalent of lipstick, eyeshadow and blush.
Most of what Jenny suggested in her post will be included, while drinks and alcohol will be a further discussion of cooking vs alchemy (perhaps as a Brewery subclass of Alchemy or something of the sort). If there are further suggestions, please let us know.

Cooldowns are a bigger thing that we are still looking into. In some cases they are definitely required, but it might be feasible to decrease them for the less impactful potions without fully throwing off balance.

A roll system for poisons is ongoing and nearly complete. The exact numbers are currently being finalized, with the quality of the craft being vital for the threat it poses.
We won't be going with the 'a higher tier craft automatically beats the lower tier' as that would essentially make lower tier alchemists useless. But poisons and the likes will be more impactful the higher the alchemist's level.

While we are pursuing Masterwork possibilities, we cannot simply make them potions with infinite use as that would definitely break balancing.
If anyone has ideas on how to introduce Masterwork potions otherwise, please let us know.

If I were to offer an idea for a masterwork, I would say a custom position per masterwork with (5) uses is a great way.

Masterworks should hold high value and have high effects. To answer the already response of “staff doesn’t not have the time to do this” - I will gladly take it on myself and help balance it as someone who has used potions.

as for the rest, thank you for the updates

 

[Somnastra]

My masterwork idea is to remove the side effects and increase potion longevity by a bit.

Maybe lower the side effects or increase uses. I think the side effects are interesting to RP.

 

[Jazzper]

For suggestion 2, the following write-up has been produced. We decided to post it here in case there is some initial additions/changes to be made before it goes live.
It puts a lot of weight behind the quality of the potion, as well as providing some additional use for the Medicine skill. Some numbers might still be adjusted as it's a lot of "not making the successes needed too high" vs "not making it too easy to resist". Overall, ingested poisons/potions will be harder to resist than bombs.

Rather than going through with low values or high values, I'd rather put it in here with the current values and let folks weigh in.

Spoiler: Resistance Stats

Resistance Stats:
If a target contests the effects of an ingested poison (elixir & powder) or thrown bomb that induces fatigue or negative effects, they may roll to combat the severity of the effects. For consumed potions, the effects may then range from taking twice as long to start taking effect, to resisting the more volatile portions of it. It does not nullify the effects.

To resist or evade the effects of an alchemical potion (ingested elixir/powder), one must roll against the potion's required successes with their own Body + Fortitude. The amount of successes needed to beat it is determined by the quality of the elixir, powder or bomb combined with the crafter's Medicine skill. An Exceptional brew made by an alchemist with Medicine 5 would require 9 successes.
Poor = 0
Decent = 1
Average = 2
Excellent = 3
Exceptional = 4

For bombs, characters can contest being hit by the potion/bomb or being within the fumes through beating the attacker's Body + Ranged with their own Body + Evasion. A success means they leave the range of the gas in time for them not to be effected. Those who return inside it will feel the full effects of the gas containment.

---------------
The following potions require a longer period of time to take effect
Draught of dreaming: It takes ten minutes to take effect, and the sleep last four hours at most. The target can still wake early if they endure a particularly horrible dream or they are forced awake otherwise.
Fumbling Fizz: It takes effect after a minute, followed by three minutes of the dizzying effect.
Mercurialis Poison: Four hours after ingesting the poison, the target endures a dull pain in their stomach. After two more hours, the poison takes effect.
Oneiric Tincture: The drowsiness only takes effect after ten minutes.
Aconitine Poison: Symptoms show after at most an hour, while it takes up to twelve hours for the poison to prove lethal.
Belladonna Poison: The affected will suffer the symptoms after at most an hour, and it takes up to four hours to die after ingesting three vials or more.
Ecstasium: It takes ten minutes for the user to suffer its effects, followed by fifteen minutes of either a good or bad trip.
Greyling Poison: Numbness spreads from the extremities outwards over the course of a minute, before paralysis sets in for thirty seconds.

Bitterbile: The user is made to vomit immediately, although they are not forced to empty their stomachs in full. Only their tongue is stained black for a day.
Cicuta Poison: The victim begins to experience confusion and drowsiness after fifteen minutes, followed by seizures after two hours. Unless treated within four hours of the poisoning, the victim will enter a comatose state for eight hours.

 

[CloakedReaper]

For suggestion 2, the following write-up has been produced. We decided to post it here in case there is some initial additions/changes to be made before it goes live.
It puts a lot of weight behind the quality of the potion, as well as providing some additional use for the Medicine skill. Some numbers might still be adjusted as it's a lot of "not making the successes needed too high" vs "not making it too easy to resist". Overall, ingested poisons/potions will be harder to resist than bombs.

Rather than going through with low values or high values, I'd rather put it in here with the current values and let folks weigh in.

Spoiler: Resistance Stats

Resistance Stats:
If a target contests the effects of an ingested poison (elixir & powder) or thrown bomb that induces fatigue or negative effects, they may roll to combat the severity of the effects. For consumed potions, the effects may then range from taking twice as long to start taking effect, to resisting the more volatile portions of it. It does not nullify the effects.

To resist or evade the effects of an alchemical potion (ingested elixir/powder), one must roll against the potion's required successes with their own Body + Fortitude. The amount of successes needed to beat it is determined by the quality of the elixir, powder or bomb combined with the crafter's Medicine skill. An Exceptional brew made by an alchemist with Medicine 5 would require 9 successes.
Poor = 0
Decent = 1
Average = 2
Excellent = 3
Exceptional = 4

For bombs, characters can contest being hit by the potion/bomb or being within the fumes through beating the attacker's Body + Ranged with their own Body + Evasion. A success means they leave the range of the gas in time for them not to be effected. Those who return inside it will feel the full effects of the gas containment.

---------------
The following potions require a longer period of time to take effect
Draught of dreaming: It takes ten minutes to take effect, and the sleep last four hours at most. The target can still wake early if they endure a particularly horrible dream or they are forced awake otherwise.
Fumbling Fizz: It takes effect after a minute, followed by three minutes of the dizzying effect.
Mercurialis Poison: Four hours after ingesting the poison, the target endures a dull pain in their stomach. After two more hours, the poison takes effect.
Oneiric Tincture: The drowsiness only takes effect after ten minutes.
Aconitine Poison: Symptoms show after at most an hour, while it takes up to twelve hours for the poison to prove lethal.
Belladonna Poison: The affected will suffer the symptoms after at most an hour, and it takes up to four hours to die after ingesting three vials or more.
Ecstasium: It takes ten minutes for the user to suffer its effects, followed by fifteen minutes of either a good or bad trip.
Greyling Poison: Numbness spreads from the extremities outwards over the course of a minute, before paralysis sets in for thirty seconds.

Bitterbile: The user is made to vomit immediately, although they are not forced to empty their stomachs in full. Only their tongue is stained black for a day.
Cicuta Poison: The victim begins to experience confusion and drowsiness after fifteen minutes, followed by seizures after two hours. Unless treated within four hours of the poisoning, the victim will enter a comatose state for eight hours.

Don’t you think a DC of 9 is a bit excessive? There’s a strong population of the server that physically could not beat that DC

 

[Goldbeean]

Medicine rolls are typically not used, the in character knowledge of general medicine is. Trying to juggle so many stats with a character is already tough , and adding a higher DC would just discourage people to rp with evil characters (or characters who would poison people) who have maxed out the alchemy system and their stats.

 

[Ced]

I would sack off medicine being involved as well - not hugely relevant for some of the recipes. Why not just start the DC for Poor at 1 and go up by 2 dice with each increment?

 

[I am Wake]

I would sack off medicine being involved as well - not hugely relevant for some of the recipes. Why not just start the DC for Poor at 1 and go up by 2 dice with each increment?

I am for this.
Less complicated and easier to manage, remember and use.

 

[Jazzper]

Don’t you think a DC of 9 is a bit excessive? There’s a strong population of the server that physically could not beat that DC

Hence the statement of "DC's were a big topic of discussion, so I'd rather put it out to the public at the moment and see where folks stand", aye.
It's not intended to be unbeatable, nor is it intended for the odds of success to be 95%. And rather than spending a longer period of time reaching a number that folks deem too low or high, I'd rather reach the final number with folks weighing in.

 

[CloakedReaper]

Don’t you think a DC of 9 is a bit excessive? There’s a strong population of the server that physically could not beat that DC

I’m adding an edit in that even if you have 10 Body+Fortitude, the likelihood of getting 9 successes is really low.

 

[IceandFire]

I am happy with the DCs, but I understand the need for easier rolls. Either way it is a good step.