Divine Spell Critique

Rygan

Rygan.
Mystic
Many of the spells right now have more game based, mechanical descriptors and references. References to things like movement speed or saying "half damage" are not useful to free form RP in aiding understanding of the effects. We do not have HP and our movement is not limited to a certain number we can half. You can't write spells based on 5e when we don't have a system like D&D. Things like disadvantage have been house rule used by some DMs, but as a concept is not officially explained within Hollowworld's mechanics for new players who have not touched tabletop to understand. My good friend Mitch for example had no idea what it was the first time it was ever applied to him. In line with the arcane spell descriptors, I believe the descriptions should be reworked to explain easily what they're doing in a way that is understandable within our system of free roleplay. There is a natural flow to CRP for example, yes, but it's not by rigid law turn based. There is no initiative or order, so what is a combat round?
 

Rygan

Rygan.
Mystic
For the record I'm not being snarky or anything either, I think defining things like that is only healthy for the server if it's going to be referenced in things.
 

Colonelgames

Lord of Altera
I've for a long while thought we should have a laid out system for combat rp specifically, yet still going with the free-form biz
 

Scardrac

o7
Retired Staff
To keep conversation clear and to retain Rygan's original point, I'll put forward a way I translated what would usually be stat effects into real life examples (or examples people can emulate with their imagination).

I don't want to go through the entire spell list right now to nitpick each and every thing that might cause a miscommunication in roleplay, but I will if staff appeals to the idea and wants me to.

For example,

If something states "half damage" as a factor, use points of references in real life, instead saying something along the lines of "a third degree burn is instead a first degree burn", or an effect that slows someone states that "it feels as if they are wading through mud, thus they are twice as slow to move". "Half pain" would instead be described as a dull, phantom pain in whatever area, like a harsh cramp. Half more grotesque/bloody injures could be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, and might require a DM to finalize unless the two parties can agree on something. A 3-inch stab becoming a 1.5 inch stab with less of a gaping wound. However it could become more finicky with more complex wounds, which is something that would require some real life knowledge. I think it's important to shy away from using numbers unless specifically implying rolling DCs and such. I think rolling is common enough in events/crp to where disadvantage and DCs are a good implementation.

It's also very important to clarify paramaters. For example, Skraag has a spell that causes an item to basically act as a rot grenade, that states that the closer someone is, the more terrible the effect. How is the blessed supposed to know what to tell the person directly beside the 'rot grenade' what is different than someone to the edge? That's perhaps less an issue, but I think things like these can be tidied up as well.

Point is, tidy up wording to be far easier to understand over text based interactions instead of stat based. I'm pro "finding a new spell" if the effects cannot be imagined easily in simile. I think it'll just save confusion/headache for you divine people's inboxes.
 

Raal

Media Gal
Retired Staff
I like this. Even if we just use a 1-10 scale as an indicator with descriptors at each value to describe how pain is amplified or diminish as an effect of a divine spell.

A pain scale as a reference in general would just be useful.

The ones that were always a bit too broad for me were the healing descriptors. Some of the spells as they were previously written required me to go out an ask the writers of the spell for the intended efficiency of the effect.

I think making descriptors narrow and more on point would be helpful, yes
 

Heie

Lord of Altera
Skraags skeletal minion states tier 4. This seems like a typo since it is in the tier 2 list.
 

Jase

Lord of Altera
Mentor
Skraags skeletal minion states tier 4. This seems like a typo since it is in the tier 2 list.
Yep! Definitely a typo from what it looks like.

On that I don’t understand why it doesn’t have any ability in combat.
It runs afoul of powergaming. I mean in a perfect world it should have ability in combat, but making combat fair for all participants with such NPCs would be a challenge.

Unless you have an idea how that could work?

Do note the way it is written, the spell was designed for the NPC to be flavour in RP not really anything else. That is why it is a T2 spell not a higher level tiered spell.
 

Lily_

Lord of Altera
Mystic
Who is to say something like a dog or otherwise a role that can’t be filled in by a player (such as a guard) can’t be used in combat, as long as it’s role played appropriately? (I.E, make sure the skeleton isn’t doing something that it wouldn’t be able to).
 

Jase

Lord of Altera
Mentor
Who is to say something like a dog or otherwise a role that can’t be filled in by a player (such as a guard) can’t be used in combat, as long as it’s role played appropriately? (I.E, make sure the skeleton isn’t doing something that it wouldn’t be able to).
It probably can be rped appropriately, however it can also be rped in a manner which can be deemed as unfair from another person in combat.

Currently there is no system in place that allows for this effectively. Hence the spells tries to reflect that.

However if there WAS a system - I'd be down for this
 

Lily_

Lord of Altera
Mystic
It probably can be rped appropriately, however it can also be rped in a manner which can be deemed as unfair from another person in combat.

Currently there is no system in place that allows for this effectively. Hence the spells tries to reflect that.

However if there WAS a system - I'd be down for this
Say it can act with the strength of a normal human, but wounds against it aren’t healed, etc. things like that
 

pyrocide

The Mogul of Cromarcky
Many of the spells right now have more game based, mechanical descriptors and references. References to things like movement speed or saying "half damage" are not useful to free form RP in aiding understanding of the effects.
That is a problem. A very specific one, that is a symptom of a much larger issue. As I've said before: "The issue is that I'm using a rook to capture your paper when you thought your paper beat community chest to still get $200 for going past the hopscotch line."

Case in point about more issues appearing should the suggestion not be taken.


Oh, there was one other bit I wanted to touch on:
Things like disadvantage
Actually, I've been meaning to bring this up for a while now. "Advantage/Disadvantage" is a very specific Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition term. so specific, there may be legal implications to using it. AFAIK No other roleplay game (including previous editions of DnD) use this term, in the exact way it applies to rolling an extra d20. It's like if you've ever played any card game besides Magic: the Gathering, you'll notice that turning a card sideways is never called "tapping," as it is a copyrighted term. Depending on the use, it would likely be allowed so long as wizards of the coast are credited, but I'm no copyright lawyer. Still, it is certainly something that should be looked into or at the very least renamed if the exact same mechanic is to be used.
 

Electric

Lord of Altera
Legend
Who is to say something like a dog or otherwise a role that can’t be filled in by a player (such as a guard) can’t be used in combat, as long as it’s role played appropriately? (I.E, make sure the skeleton isn’t doing something that it wouldn’t be able to).
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean, but pets can’t be used in combat (just like these spooky scary skeletons)
 

Rue

Lord of Altera
Mystic
so.. has this just been dropped or ?
(not a shitpost just genuinely want to see a reply to this)
 
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Elz

Secretly Niah
Staff member
Some points have been taken to the chat to discuss, we'll see how it goes. In regards to changing things if they are not clear to folk who do not know dnd-style terms/the pain guide thing, anyway.
 

Solus

:eyes:
Staff member
Server Owner
so.. has this just been dropped or ?
(not a shitpost just genuinely want to see a reply to this)
I’m not in an urgency to change it right away. I’m busy and people need to understand that. It’ll be looked at when possible.
 

Rue

Lord of Altera
Mystic
I’m not in an urgency to change it right away. I’m busy and people need to understand that. It’ll be looked at when possible.
was looking for acknowledgement- not immediate change.
 

Solus

:eyes:
Staff member
Server Owner
Many of the spells right now have more game based, mechanical descriptors and references. References to things like movement speed or saying "half damage" are not useful to free form RP in aiding understanding of the effects. We do not have HP and our movement is not limited to a certain number we can half. You can't write spells based on 5e when we don't have a system like D&D. Things like disadvantage have been house rule used by some DMs, but as a concept is not officially explained within Hollowworld's mechanics for new players who have not touched tabletop to understand. My good friend @Mitch for example had no idea what it was the first time it was ever applied to him. In line with the arcane spell descriptors, I believe the descriptions should be reworked to explain easily what they're doing in a way that is understandable within our system of free roleplay. There is a natural flow to CRP for example, yes, but it's not by rigid law turn based. There is no initiative or order, so what is a combat round?
..How are you, personally, roleplaying combat? I'm not familiar with how you roleplay it if you're questioning what a combat round is. What is 'freeform' to you?

The idea of a combat round between two or more people is that each person gets at least one action within a time span. We have a guide here: https://hollowworld.co.uk/threads/combat-rp-guidelines.42206/ that would introduce concepts used in combat to players unfamiliar with them. Yes, we don't have HP .. there's been no mechanic introduced to allude to it. Yes, we have movement speed as a term. A character's movement is limited to a certain range. ie- Players should not normally be running 30b per rp second. To go along with free form, these descriptions were used to allow players to be flexible in how they roleplay it. If they can normally run from one part of a room to another, they would now be limited to covering half the room. This was the intention.

You can't write spells based on 5e when we don't have a system like D&D.
I'm singling this one out because it surprises me. All of our Arcane spells are influenced by a mechanic system. They require rolls to cast. They have DCs. It is not odd for us to introduce Divine spells that require someone to re-roll, or to have their DCs increased or lowered. Our server events have been slowly introducing things a rolling system as a test to see how it goes, with no modifiers, and most of these spells are inclined to be used during events rather than a pvp scenario.

Point is, tidy up wording to be far easier to understand over text based interactions instead of stat based. I'm pro "finding a new spell" if the effects cannot be imagined easily in simile. I think it'll just save confusion/headache for you divine people's inboxes.
This is a good suggestion the others can work on fixing and one that can be implemented in time.

The ones that were always a bit too broad for me were the healing descriptors. Some of the spells as they were previously written required me to go out an ask the writers of the spell for the intended efficiency of the effect.
The same as above- I've you and namely most of the divine players in the team. If you can help to reword it, that'd be great.

Actually, I've been meaning to bring this up for a while now. "Advantage/Disadvantage" is a very specific Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition term. so specific, there may be legal implications to using it. AFAIK No other roleplay game (including previous editions of DnD) use this term, in the exact way it applies to rolling an extra d20. It's like if you've ever played any card game besides Magic: the Gathering, you'll notice that turning a card sideways is never called "tapping," as it is a copyrighted term. Depending on the use, it would likely be allowed so long as wizards of the coast are credited, but I'm no copyright lawyer. Still, it is certainly something that should be looked into or at the very least renamed if the exact same mechanic is to be used.
I will be blunt and say I'm not fond of throwing the word 'legal action' around on a minecraft roleplay server that runs on player donations. I've had this done twice to me in the past 3 years and it always ends up being a scare tactic. If you have actual proof of D&D 5e copyrighting terms, I would prefer that be sent my way privately instead of throwing it as an afterthought on a thread so that I may properly adjust things. Otherwise, I can't take this seriously and will only be inclined to give them credit for inspiration.
 

pyrocide

The Mogul of Cromarcky
I will be blunt and say I'm not fond of throwing the word 'legal action' around on a minecraft roleplay server that runs on player donations. I've had this done twice to me in the past 3 years and it always ends up being a scare tactic. If you have actual proof of D&D 5e copyrighting terms, I would prefer that be sent my way privately instead of throwing it as an afterthought on a thread so that I may properly adjust things. Otherwise, I can't take this seriously and will only be inclined to give them credit for inspiration.
As I stated before, I am no copyright lawyer. I'm not trying to scare anyone. I doubt this server makes enough of a ripple in the water to attract any corporations' attention, so even in the case of it being a real copyright violation I have serious doubts that they'd even see it. I also stated I do not know for sure if this is a real violation or not, due to DnD 5e's semi-open OGL that simply requires credit given to the company for use of most (but not all) of the basics of their mechanics. As you can see in the previous post, it is simply something I suggested that should be looked into. However, I had assumed that management kept a certain level of respect for the principle of the matter, case in point changing the tavern at SL when it was found to have been a copy without credit. That sentiment seems to have changed, and is noted.
 
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