HW 2021: Hollowcrafting, Magic, and More.

[Heie]

Gemcutting has been moved to the "planned to arrive shortly after the release of HollowCrafting" part of the post, like alchemy and cooking

Thanks, however I'm aware of that Jazzper. I was asking if it was still going to be under carving when it is added back in.

 

[Brown]

As a follow-up of Mongoose's question, some concerns from someone who has been in the smithing system since they joined: What about those that have been smithing for 150+ IC (nearly 6 OOC) years? Since this seems like a system based on what a Human craftsman might be able to do (eventhough Medieval blacksmiths usually also made locks, horseshoes, nails, parts of furniture, etc.), are the races with longer lifespans treated differently?

At that point, I would argue they have such an innate understanding of smithing that the boundaries between making arms, armour and jewelry have sufficiently blurred. If you mastered the technique, understand the materials, possess massive amounts of experience and have the appropriate tools, what is stopping you? It is not so much an entire craft itself, as an extension of what you were already doing. I understand that someone of 20-30 years old would struggle learning all three at the same time, but what about someone that has had the time (and put the effort in) to hone them all to mastery one after the other? Does Thordil simply forget gold and silver are a thing, or that weapons/armour/jewelry are things that can be made?

In the end, goldsmithing still has you work a forge and follow much the same processes as armorsmithing and bladesmithing. The major differences are scale and materials, but those are not that big of a deal. If you can engrave arms and armour with fine detail of differing metals, what stops you from doing that with metals that are much easier to work with like gold and silver? Especially for someone who has already used it extensively IC?

While I fully agree with you from an IC perspective, I think you're overlooking a large OOC reason hollow crafting is being implemented (at least from how I see it). It's not just to have OOC items for things and have a tangible number to show your skills, it's also to encourage a real mercantile and trading business. The limit to specializations and only having one harvesting skill isn't just there to represent your characters focus, it's also to encourage more businesses and trade to flourish because you can't get everything in one place. While it makes perfect sense for Thordil to be the best of the best at all things smithing, if he's allowed to have EVERY smithing specialization then we've just straight back to square one. I can get everything I want at one place, so why go anywhere else? Thordil is already the master of everything so why should I even try to be a smith?

It's like monopolies in real life. One person or business having dominion over an entire section of the market will make it harder for others, or discourage them from trying.

 

[Heie]

A monopoly has sole or majority control over a product. Typically by buying out competitors or putting them out of business. Thordil having mastery over multiple smithing specialties in no way prevents others from achieving specialties in the same fields. This also doesn't take into account OOC timezones and availability not to mention IC access to him. Thordil is already known as the most famous smith in altera already, yet their are not only other smiths out there with there own reputation, people buy from them as well.

TLDR: just because Wal-mart has everything in one place, doesn't mean I shop there.

 

[Brown]

A monopoly has sole or majority control over a product. Typically by buying out competitors or putting them out of business. Thordil having mastery over multiple smithing specialties in no way prevents others from achieving specialties in the same fields. This also doesn't take into account OOC timezones and availability not to mention IC access to him. Thordil is already known as the most famous smith in altera already, yet their are not only other smiths out there with there own reputation, people buy from them as well.

TLDR: just because Wal-mart has everything in one place, doesn't mean I shop there.

Point isn't that Thordil shouldn't have the smithing specialties, just not all of them. Gives more room for others to take up niches in smithing. This doesn't even begin to touch on if we allow smithing to override the specialization limit then you'd have to for everything else and that just complicates things further. Where it is right now is the optimal compromise I feel

 

[Jazzper]

While I fully agree with you from an IC perspective, I think you're overlooking a large OOC reason hollow crafting is being implemented (at least from how I see it). It's not just to have OOC items for things and have a tangible number to show your skills, it's also to encourage a real mercantile and trading business. The limit to specializations and only having one harvesting skill isn't just there to represent your characters focus, it's also to encourage more businesses and trade to flourish because you can't get everything in one place. While it makes perfect sense for Thordil to be the best of the best at all things smithing, if he's allowed to have EVERY smithing specialization then we've just straight back to square one. I can get everything I want at one place, so why go anywhere else? Thordil is already the master of everything so why should I even try to be a smith?

It's like monopolies in real life. One person or business having dominion over an entire section of the market will make it harder for others, or discourage them from trying.

There is 4 specializations under Smithing as of current, so it would still only be 3/4. I am not overlooking the OOC reason behind HollowCrafting, I can assure you. But it is an RP server, not an OOC Factions Economy server. My stance has always been, and will likely always be, that too much OOC micro-management can easily be more detrimental than not having a system at all. And although the server took a great step in adding the plugin, I really do not want to get several OOC and a metric tonne of IC years worth of time and effort erased. How is that fair to the ones that already went through it?

Even before HollowCrafting was introduced, smiths other than Thordil got commissioned just as well. What held people back from smithing, based on what I was told whenever it got brought up, was not that there was another smith dominating the market. It was nearly always either the argument of "I do not want to do that much OOC research for me to be an IC smith" or "I do not want to do solo RP all the time just to legitimize my occupation". The current system fixed this. We can never go back to square one as long as this remains as-is.

Point isn't that Thordil shouldn't have the smithing specialties, just not all of them. Gives more room for others to take up niches in smithing. This doesn't even begin to touch on if we allow smithing to override the specialization limit then you'd have to for everything else and that just complicates things further. Where it is right now is the optimal compromise I feel

It would be 3/4, not 4/4. And I do feel it would make more sense for smithing to be the exception due to what I mentioned in the original post. But I will elaborate below.
Carving: Bowyer, Engineering and Siege Engineering vastly differ in the materials, tools and techniques used. They are fully seperate professions. The same goes for Gemcutting, if it once again gets filed under Carving after it has been finished.
Tailoring: Tanner and Weaver vastly differ in materials, tools and techniques used. Once again, fully seperate professions.
Smithing: Armorsmithing, Bladesmithing and Goldsmithing use metals with a small range of properties, the same tools with maybe a tiny adjustment in taper and near identical techniques (billets, sheets, way of rotating the piece around a tool, etc.). Compared to the materials used in generic produce of arms and armour, the use of Gold and Silver is easy mode.

I do not feel like it is currently a compromise, as it's set the exact same regardless of effort put in. A compromise is give-and-take.
I have always been in favour of making it easier and more fun to get into crafting. But I have always and will always oppose deleting the effort put into by people.

 

[Brown]

There is 4 specializations under Smithing as of current, so it would still only be 3/4. I am not overlooking the OOC reason behind HollowCrafting, I can assure you. But it is an RP server, not an OOC Factions Economy server. My stance has always been, and will likely always be, that too much OOC micro-management can easily be more detrimental than not having a system at all. And although the server took a great step in adding the plugin, I really do not want to get several OOC and a metric tonne of IC years worth of time and effort erased. How is that fair to the ones that already went through it?

Even before HollowCrafting was introduced, smiths other than Thordil got commissioned just as well. What held people back from smithing, based on what I was told whenever it got brought up, was not that there was another smith dominating the market. It was nearly always either the argument of "I do not want to do that much OOC research for me to be an IC smith" or "I do not want to do solo RP all the time just to legitimize my occupation". The current system fixed this. We can never go back to square one as long as this remains as-is.

It would be 3/4, not 4/4. And I do feel it would make more sense for smithing to be the exception due to what I mentioned in the original post. But I will elaborate below.
Carving: Bowyer, Engineering and Siege Engineering vastly differ in the materials, tools and techniques used. They are fully seperate professions. The same goes for Gemcutting, if it once again gets filed under Carving after it has been finished.
Tailoring: Tanner and Weaver vastly differ in materials, tools and techniques used. Once again, fully seperate professions.
Smithing: Armorsmithing, Bladesmithing and Goldsmithing use metals with a small range of properties, the same tools with maybe a tiny adjustment in taper and near identical techniques (billets, sheets, way of rotating the piece around a tool, etc.). Compared to the materials used in generic produce of arms and armour, the use of Gold and Silver is easy mode.

I do not feel like it is currently a compromise, as it's set the exact same regardless of effort put in. A compromise is give-and-take.
I have always been in favour of making it easier and more fun to get into crafting. But I have always and will always oppose deleting the effort put into by people.

Alright you make a very good point. Though I could continue to argue that despite similar materials and techniques the skills are different enough to warrant the separation we'd just reach a feedback loop. In any case, we are left with the issue that it would mean smiths get 3 specializations while everyone else gets 2. How do you propose we get around that? Combine the smithing skills?

 

[Jazzper]

Alright you make a very good point. Though I could continue to argue that despite similar materials and techniques the skills are different enough to warrant the separation we'd just reach a feedback loop. In any case, we are left with the issue that it would mean smiths get 3 specializations while everyone else gets 2. How do you propose we get around that? Combine the smithing skills?

I think the main issue lies within the term "specializations". Only the Smithing tree contains specializations (Armor, Weapon, Gold), whereas the rest are actual full-fledged professions (Immortal Stewardship, Bowyer, Engineer, Siege-Engineer, Tanner and Weaver). Although one could argue Engineering and Siege-Engineering might be equally similar, I have not delved into what either entails. So I cannot judge those two for certain.

Not defining Smithing as broadly would indeed be one way to clear things up. Based on an earlier discussion regarding the same topic when the system was first announced, I think most of the Goldsmithing is simply "the same as the other two specializations, but with gold/silver" and "the same as the other two specializations, but more beautiful". I think it would be possible to simply group Smithing into three branches, since you can already make weapons even before specializing. So perhaps Weaponsmithing could be made redundant and just absorbed into base Smithing or combined with the prettier Goldsmithing version? Or make it Goldsmith and Warsmith?

 

[Scardrac]

Apologies, I meant to put it in the post (and will edit it in), but Immortal Stewardship is the practice of repairing and modifying Immortal Constructs. I am still pondering if I am going to make this a race-exclusive profession to start, but it runs into the same problem that has been brought up with Goldsmithing: some parts of Immortal Stewardship is just creating something extremely similar to plate armor, but with additional physical bits; "Why can't an armorsmith just do that?". Essentially, Immortal Stewards are armorsmiths for Immortal Constructs; I would not feel like I was missing out because I couldn't choose it, unless I really liked the Immortal Constructs, but at that point, I wont be using mundane armor anyway, so I wont miss armorsmithing. Anyway...

I'm reading all of the feedback carefully, and I do not have a direct answer for how smithing will turn out come full release. We're aware of the concerns, and will come to a compromise best fitting for the server.

But you must all know that even the best smiths are soon going to have an influx of new materials that they have yet had practice with, their time will be consumed by these new materials, as they are much more costly on resources than your more mundane materials. The plugin was not based around any sort of human capability with disregard for other races, our design philosophy is to allow people to play their crafting niche, without making it incredibly easy to cover all of the bases of crafting with just one or two characters. Many of these new materials have base effects that eclipse some of your favorite artifacts. They are formidable tasks to forge. That being said, there will as well be new softer metals, similar to gold and silver, that will be added, and only the most professed in metallurgy will be able to learn with relative ease. The method of forging can become something of strange and pure fantasy, instead of a mundane task.

While a blacksmith may have an easier time working gold than someone who weaves fabrics, working soft metals into desirable, quality shapes is something that a 'smith' can specialize in their whole life, without swinging a hammer against a piece of hot iron. It is not "easy mode", but I can see where practice in smithing in general can aid you in working the materials. You know the basics, after all, and probably have a few molds to pour things into. Ultimately, the limit to professions is intentional, and by design, some characters are not going to be everything they used to be.

But I will reiterate again that I see merit in the conversation about Goldsmithing in particular; I will not just forget about your points, and I have a few solutions in mind, but I want to play them out in my head before I advertise them as solutions or compromises. This is supposed to be a thing of excitement, and I do not want to upset anyone, so I will not make any promises besides that I promise to think long and hard about the best solution.

 

[Brown]

After reviewing the specializations again, I mostly agree, but I'd approach in a different way. Maybe there's just too much overlap for smithing. I'd have to get confirmation on what the recipes actually are, but maybe Goldsmith can be strictly for jewelry making, and then keep Blade and Armour where it is? That way you can still use materials like gold and silver which should be easier for a smith, but in your given profession.

 

[Scardrac]

Ive noticed some specializations have been dropped and some added, is gem cutting still under carving? What is Immortal Stewardship?

The scope of Gemcutting was much larger than originally anticipated. Its place among Alchemy hints towards just how ambitious it is planned to be. It will be its own thing.

 

[Rygan]

After reviewing the specializations again, I mostly agree, but I'd approach in a different way. Maybe there's just too much overlap for smithing. I'd have to get confirmation on what the recipes actually are, but maybe Goldsmith can be strictly for jewelry making, and then keep Blade and Armour where it is? That way you can still use materials like gold and silver which should be easier for a smith, but in your given profession.

Blade and armor smithing being separate is important, I think, but goldsmithing could get turned into something like 'Jeweler' without much harm potentially.

 

[Magic Intern]

Just to add to all this; (a) I do think it's fair to have goldsmithing as its own specialization. I feel like there's a certain level of artistry and fine detail to goldsmithing that isn't the same as armoursmithing or weaponsmithing, it isn't just about proficiency with shaping metal - remember that you're creating masterpieces when you max out these skills. I think that requires a certain level of commitment.

But anyway, as for actual solutions to this, I'll just throw out this; Perhaps players could split their specializations 3+ ways, but with a limit to mastery - so you could have all 3 smithing specializations but be unable to gain Master in more than one. Like how multiclassing magic should have worked.

 

[Jazzper]

Just to add to all this; (a) I do think it's fair to have goldsmithing as its own specialization. I feel like there's a certain level of artistry and fine detail to goldsmithing that isn't the same as armoursmithing or weaponsmithing, it isn't just about proficiency with shaping metal - remember that you're creating masterpieces when you max out these skills. I think that requires a certain level of commitment.

But anyway, as for actual solutions to this, I'll just throw out this; Perhaps players could split their specializations 3+ ways, but with a limit to mastery - so you could have all 3 smithing specializations but be unable to gain Master in more than one. Like how multiclassing magic should have worked.

You are creating masterpieces with the same type of material, is my point. You do the exact same actions, just with differing materials or on a slightly differing scale. Whether you carve fine detail into steel/iron or gold/silver makes little difference, beyond it being fairly easy in the latter compared to the former. Armour and Weapon smithing were not as lacking in fine detail as one might think. Look at chainmail, for example, versus a golden ring.

While a blacksmith may have an easier time working gold than someone who weaves fabrics, working soft metals into desirable, quality shapes is something that a 'smith' can specialize in their whole life, without swinging a hammer against a piece of hot iron. It is not "easy mode", but I can see where practice in smithing in general can aid you in working the materials. You know the basics, after all, and probably have a few molds to pour things into. Ultimately, the limit to professions is intentional, and by design, some characters are not going to be everything they used to be.

Compared to working iron or steel, silver and gold are definitely "easy mode". If you can make tiny ring shapes out of the former for chainmail, pommels and the likes, you can make a bigger ring made of some of the most ideal metals you could work with as a smith. Whereas going from silver/gold to iron/steel would be much more of a challenge (techniques you do not do as a goldsmith that you would as a weapon/armoursmith), I can assure you the opposite is far, far easier. I am not saying learning Goldsmithing/Jewelcrafting is "easy mode" to learn. But it definitely is such if you first learned and mastered the rest.

But I will reiterate again that I see merit in the conversation about Goldsmithing in particular; I will not just forget about your points, and I have a few solutions in mind, but I want to play them out in my head before I advertise them as solutions or compromises. This is supposed to be a thing of excitement, and I do not want to upset anyone, so I will not make any promises besides that I promise to think long and hard about the best solution.

Thank you for the time and effort put into this.

 

[Scardrac]

Edit: Engineer has gone to 'Shipwright' as it was originally intended, just an error in the naming and renaming things.

 

[Dusty]

You are creating masterpieces with the same type of material, is my point. You do the exact same actions, just with differing materials or on a slightly differing scale. Whether you carve fine detail into steel/iron or gold/silver makes little difference, beyond it being fairly easy in the latter compared to the former. Armour and Weapon smithing were not as lacking in fine detail as one might think. Look at chainmail, for example, versus a golden ring.

That's just not true. Coming in on this conversation without knowledge of the crafting system in particular, from a craftsman's standpoint Gold shapes far differently than Iron or Steel. It's an entirely different craft, and a smith that has trained with iron throughout their career wouldn't be able to just swap to using gold just because it's a metal.

Smithing in history was a very specialized fashion, a weaponsmith wouldn't know the first thing about making a piece of armor and vice versa.The action of creating chainmail versus a golden ring is also pretty distinct. It requires an entire different set of actions, not the same ones. Less force is surprisingly hard to do.

 

[TheDeester]

 

[Electric]

Definitely some good points being raised. I’ll say this - I get where Jasper is coming from about not wanting past time and effort to be forgotten/wasted, and I also get Brown’s point about not wanting unrealistic skill trees where someone is an absolute master of three different things. Both have merit. It does depend on how the goldsmith/jeweler skills are implemented or adapted, but in my opinion it would make sense that an extremely skilled smith (ahem, Thordil) can apply their smithing skill to pick up multiple “subclasses” in smithing. I think to balance this - and keep it realistic - a smith could be an armor smith, weapon smith, and goldsmith, BUT they would choose one to fully master.
Let’s take Thor for example, for obvious reasons. Jasper says he’s put in time and effort to be learn all three skills - it’s reasonable to say he can retain them in the new system, but for balancing he can choose full mastery in one of them, and the others he can still pursue but not master to the same extent.
That makes sense, but let’s take a look at an apprentice smith, to see how it would work for others. The smith can start their journey learning armorsmithing, for example. This is their first task. After they reach a certain level, they can add another skill - weapon smithing - and pursue that, while still practicing armor smithing. After a while, they reach certain levels in both these skills - now they can pick a third (and final) skill, goldsmithing. The way the progress here works, their first skill they can achieve mastery in. The secondary skills they can’t achieve mastery in, but with enough effort they can still be Damn good.

To me this makes sense, but the terminology (I used skill to refer to everything) may be wrong, forgive me. It’s not an overarching solution, but it’s what came to mind to me.

 

[Blorbis83]

How will shipwright and siege engineering be implemented? Or is that a secret still? :O

 

[Scardrac]

How will shipwright and siege engineering be implemented? Or is that a secret still? :O

People's boats will be grandfathered, of course, but further boats, trebuchets, ballistae, etc. will require an in-game item equivalent alongside the build itself.

 

[Jazzper]

That's just not true. Coming in on this conversation without knowledge of the crafting system in particular, from a craftsman's standpoint Gold shapes far differently than Iron or Steel. It's an entirely different craft, and a smith that has trained with iron throughout their career wouldn't be able to just swap to using gold just because it's a metal.

Smithing in history was a very specialized fashion, a weaponsmith wouldn't know the first thing about making a piece of armor and vice versa.The action of creating chainmail versus a golden ring is also pretty distinct. It requires an entire different set of actions, not the same ones. Less force is surprisingly hard to do.

From my own experiences, I have found the softer metals more of a joy to work with. Do you use the exact same process in the same order? Of course not, but I never claimed it to be the exact same process or for it to be an immediate swap. Should I maybe not have said "much the same" without elaborating on alterations? Sure. But there are many similarities, on a differing scale and with differing materials (this is me paraphrasing what I said). Should you hit as hard with gold/silver as with iron/steel? Of course not. I reiterate that I am not saying learning to work gold/silver from scratch is easier than iron/steel/etc. My point was that it is easier to adjust if you already know the techniques and tools. Hammer control remains a factor in everything you make. Although I do agree that is generally the main pitfall.

Depending on the way you make which type of ring, it can be quite similar, in my opinion. If you wind the chain links vs. silver with assistance of a mandrel, I do not find my comparison atrocious. There were medieval smiths who could produce weapons and armour. They might not have additionally focused on everything present within the base profession of Smithing within the plugin, but that is base-kit within the plugin at the moment.