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Ranged Attacks

snipero1

Lord of Altera
Aright, so I have been noticing ranged attacks where one person shoots an arrow or throws a knife or something, and this is all very well and good but then the character being attacked says they "dodged" the arrow despite it being a distance of a few metres and the arrow\bolt in question coming at 70 miles an hour. I find this extremely unrealistic and it undermines the entire concept of realistic roleplaying.
I ask that if anyone reads this thread please dodge before the person attacking with a ranged weapon shoots otherwise you wouldn't have any time to react. Just something to think on :)
-Snipero1
 

Spark

Broken
The person would likely notice you drawing your bow, they could just move when they see you releasing? Otherwise I see your point.
 

Ced

Mountain Bum
Merchant
Retired Staff
MossyMorel
MossyMorel
Merchant
The person would likely notice you drawing your bow, they could just move when they see you releasing? Otherwise I see your point.
Surely then the archer would adjust their arm to the opponent's movement.
The time between the firing of the bolt/arrow and it's collision with it's target would be shockingly fast, of course, depending on the range.

But as a Ranger I'm sick of people dodging a 200 feet per second arrow that, as a Ranger, is fired fairly damn accurately.

But I must concede, with a distance of around 10 metres or more it is entirely possible for a shield to be raised in time. Just maybe not a full body dive/dip/duck/dodge (hurray for references).
 

GhostKairo

sparkles emoji
Pronouns
He/Him
Tidepod__
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Hero
Aright, so I have been noticing ranged attacks where one person shoots an arrow or throws a knife or something, and this is all very well and good but then the character being attacked says they "dodged" the arrow despite it being a distance of a few metres and the arrow\bolt in question coming at 70 miles an hour. I find this extremely unrealistic and it undermines the entire concept of realistic roleplaying.
I ask that if anyone reads this thread please dodge before the person attacking with a ranged weapon shoots otherwise you wouldn't have any time to react. Just something to think on :)
-Snipero1
Also, when it comes to knife throwing the blade doesn't -always- hit the target. If you're in a quick chase-like fight, the chances that the projectile does its full capacity on damage is very small. But if you're stalking someone, you measure well and you throw accurately. For axe throwing, it's just -PURE- luck. So yeah, games aren't very realistic sometimes…*Deathstares the Assassin's Creed game series*
 

Spark

Broken
Ced said:
Surely then the archer would adjust their arm to the opponent's movement.
The time between the firing of the bolt/arrow and it's collision with it's target would be shockingly fast, of course, depending on the range.

But as a Ranger I'm sick of people dodging a 200 feet per second arrow that, as a Ranger, is fired fairly damn accurately.

But I must concede, with a distance of around 10 metres or more it is entirely possible for a shield to be raised in time. Just maybe not a full body dive/dip/duck/dodge (hurray for references).
Have you ever actually tried shooting an arrow at a moving target? It's pretty damn hard. Even for a skilled ranger you would have to be incredibly accurate. It's not like firing a gun, you can't just swing round and excpect the arrow to go straight.
 

Ced

Mountain Bum
Merchant
Retired Staff
MossyMorel
MossyMorel
Merchant
Have you ever actually tried shooting an arrow at a moving target? It's pretty damn hard. Even for a skilled ranger you would have to be incredibly accurate. It's not like firing a gun, you can't just swing round and excpect the arrow to go straight.
Yep, I find it hard shooting arrows at stationary ones ;) I know what firing a bow is like, and yeah, it'd be hard. But so is swordfighting. It's just a skill to be mastered, and the Rangers are masters.
 

Spark

Broken
Ced said:
Yep, I find it hard shooting arrows at stationary ones ;) I know what firing a bow is like, and yeah, it'd be hard. But so is swordfighting. It's just a skill to be mastered, and the Rangers are masters.
Yes but that makes things very OP, if a ranger can shoot an arrow that nobody can dodge, it makes them pretty tank.
 

snipero1

Lord of Altera
But the thing I've seen most people do is
Archer: raises arrow and fires
Man: Moves to the right
As you can see this makes no sense whatsoever, if the archer\crossbowman said beforehand they were raising their weapon then this could happen.
Archer: raises bow and sights the man with the instinctive ease of a experienced ranger\whatever.
Man: Starts to move to cover then realises there isn't any.
Archer: shoots the arrow at the man.

This is a lot more realistic but as Spark said, if you were an inexperienced archer then you would most likely miss if the man was moving.
 

Menel

Carpet Monkey
Have you ever actually tried shooting an arrow at a moving target? It's pretty damn hard. Even for a skilled ranger you would have to be incredibly accurate. It's not like firing a gun, you can't just swing round and excpect the arrow to go straight.

hmmmm.....yes. i have. I am a total amateur, never realy seriously practised but i can shoot an arrow over a distance of 10-20 meters at stationary or moving targets (the size of a man, ofc not running around but moving like...walking. the point here is shooting at a target that isn't concentrating on you, that slowly walks around maybe cause it fights another warrior.).
actually, that isn't the problem. Anyone can learn that when practising one week dedicated. the problem is your "slow" reload speed, to hit your target where you actually wanted to hit, and longer distances. And ofc armor. platearmor and chainmail underneath. almost no way of hitting -and- doing damage, without a crossbow (or a longbow and some distance)


btw guys, if you wear armo and it blocks the projectile...don't shrug it off. that hurts. maybe giving you bruises, stops you and/or forces you one (a few) steps back =)
 

Spark

Broken
hmmmm.....yes. i have. I am a total amateur, never realy seriously practised but i can shoot an arrow over a distance of 10-20 meters at stationary or moving targets (the size of a man, ofc not running around but moving like...walking. the point here is shooting at a target that isn't concentrating on you, that slowly walks around maybe cause it fights another warrior.).
actually, that isn't the problem. Anyone can learn that when practising one week dedicated. the problem is your "slow" reload speed, to hit your target where you actually wanted to hit, and longer distances. And ofc armor. platearmor and chainmail underneath. almost no way of hitting -and- doing damage, without a crossbow (or a longbow and some distance)


btw guys, if you wear armour and it blocks the projectile...don't shrug it off. that hurts. maybe giving you bruises, stops you and/or forces you one (a few) steps back =)
But that is incredibly OP, you can't really shoot people when they have no idea it's coming and expect them to let it hit them, mainly because not everyone wears plate armour, so someone without it wouldn't be able to do anything. If there's no way to do dodge or defend yourself it's pretty unfair. Reloading a bow isn't exactly the slowest thing, takes about 3 seconds and if the target has an arrow sticking out of them there's not much they can do. I would love to use a bow for RP fights but it doesn't seem practical or fair.
 

snipero1

Lord of Altera
Spark, I doubt one shot, even well placed will kill somebody. If they get hit most people would have the sense to run to cover. Besides a threat of a bow pointed at somebody will usually "persuade" people to your point of view or whatever you want them to do. I know in an rp fight I hit somebody with a bolt and they ran to cover, I couldn't hit them without getting closer. THis was a stalemate which if someone wanted to counter then they could throw a rock or something to distract the shooters aim, if the shooter didn't shoot they would relax a bit, making it a lot more likely to be able to get past the shooter. Besides although a bow takes 3 seconds to load it would take about 5 more seconds to get an accurate shot off and even then it could miss.
 

Matto225

The White Mage
But that is incredibly OP, you can't really shoot people when they have no idea it's coming and expect them to let it hit them, mainly because not everyone wears plate armour, so someone without it wouldn't be able to do anything. If there's no way to do dodge or defend yourself it's pretty unfair. Reloading a bow isn't exactly the slowest thing, takes about 3 seconds and if the target has an arrow sticking out of them there's not much they can do. I would love to use a bow for RP fights but it doesn't seem practical or fair.
I know what you mean - a few weeks ago I was literally standing around in Port Silver and some bloke on a roof miles away shot at me with a bow. Luckily I was able to helicopter off to safety (wasnt there in RP) but it still stands: While its realistic not to know someones aiming at you, is it fair/OP? I'd just like the random "I am evil. There is man. I will kill" to stop XD
 

Menel

Carpet Monkey
But that is incredibly OP, you can't really shoot people when they have no idea it's coming and expect them to let it hit them, mainly because not everyone wears plate armour, so someone without it wouldn't be able to do anything. If there's no way to do dodge or defend yourself it's pretty unfair. Reloading a bow isn't exactly the slowest thing, takes about 3 seconds and if the target has an arrow sticking out of them there's not much they can do. I would love to use a bow for RP fights but it doesn't seem practical or fair.

wait wait waaaaiiit i wouldn't go that far. not at all. if that would be the way it is, then why didn't all medieval armys just used bows and ranged attacks? in a game archers most times are op yes. that is due to the limmits of programming. our imagination has no limmit at all though...it even goes beyond the limmitations of the reality ;)

an archer would be op if you couldn't defeat him.

you fight a warrior and an archer backs him up shooting you in the back. it is the same as if another warrior sneaks behind you stabbing you from behind. ganging up on ppl is not op at all. you could do the same.

warior vs. archer: archer wins as long as he can keep the distance. warrior wins if he get's closer. if the archer is too far away then...run. simple. well ofc run into the opposite direction, not -into- the projectiles and then shouting op!" then you deserved your death :p
if an archer sneaks on you, assassinating your from a distance...well....that isn't op either. a good assassin could get close too and do the same with a dagger. (assassins creed :p at least a refference, if not real ;) )

armor: if a warrior that choses close combat is not wearing any armor at all, then why blame the archer? that isn't his fault.
i said plate armor is most efficient against projectiles, but even good leather armor helps (the better the armor, the better your defence. it is the same with close combat. leather won't stop a direct swordstab, but can help against slashes. it won't stop a direct arrow-hit, but helps with graze shots)

type of bow: last but not least as some already pointed out it also depends on the weapon. just ask beforehand. shortbows good for short distances, towns and such, crossbows and long bows good against armor and in the open (but long reloadtime), throwing thinks depends on the weapon. axes at least hit you hard, knives disturb you, throwing stars would realy do damage, as long as there is no armor.

a bow is as op as a sword. it isn't. it is a tool, a weapon. what makes them op is ppl not knowing how to use them. a bow is most likely a bit deadlyer and a bit more handy, when you know your stuff. but that is the point. to play an archer you need to know more. everyone can play a swordsman, swinging, stabbing and slashing around.

baning ranged weapons partly or in a whole would totaly ruin any immersion. just as always, think before acting. both archer and his victim ;)




PS. someone said a bow has a realos time of 3 secs. that is correct and if you do that you can shoot many...maaany arrows. but none would hit. if -you- have a reaction time of 3 secs for geting the arrow out, aiming accurately, not panicking, adjusting your aim, thinking about weather and wind and -not- thinking about the pointed end of that sword that is getting closer realy fast, well then i will follow you for i have found the legendary robin hood =0
 

Spark

Broken
Spark, I doubt one shot, even well placed will kill somebody. If they get hit most people would have the sense to run to cover. Besides a threat of a bow pointed at somebody will usually "persuade" people to your point of view or whatever you want them to do. I know in an rp fight I hit somebody with a bolt and they ran to cover, I couldn't hit them without getting closer. THis was a stalemate which if someone wanted to counter then they could throw a rock or something to distract the shooters aim, if the shooter didn't shoot they would relax a bit, making it a lot more likely to be able to get past the shooter. Besides although a bow takes 3 seconds to load it would take about 5 more seconds to get an accurate shot off and even then it could miss.
Yes a bow is unlikely to kill someone, but they sure as hell wouldn't be able to run away after. if it hits you in the gut, you will likely bleed out, in the chest, you will die, in the head you will die, in the legs, you can't run. The only place that wouldn't pretty much render you useless would be in the arm.
wait wait waaaaiiit i wouldn't go that far. not at all. if that would be the way it is, then why didn't all medieval armys just used bows and ranged attacks? in a game archers most times are op yes. that is due to the limmits of programming. our imagination has no limmit at all though...it even goes beyond the limmitations of the reality ;)

an archer would be op if you couldn't defeat him.

you fight a warrior and an archer backs him up shooting you in the back. it is the same as if another warrior sneaks behind you stabbing you from behind. ganging up on ppl is not op at all. you could do the same.

warior vs. archer: archer wins as long as he can keep the distance. warrior wins if he get's closer. if the archer is too far away then...run. simple. well ofc run into the opposite direction, not -into- the projectiles and then shouting op!" then you deserved your death :p
if an archer sneaks on you, assassinating your from a distance...well....that isn't op either. a good assassin could get close too and do the same with a dagger. (assassins creed :p at least a refference, if not real ;) )

armor: if a warrior that choses close combat is not wearing any armor at all, then why blame the archer? that isn't his fault.
i said plate armor is most efficient against projectiles, but even good leather armor helps (the better the armor, the better your defence. it is the same with close combat. leather won't stop a direct swordstab, but can help against slashes. it won't stop a direct arrow-hit, but helps with graze shots)

type of bow: last but not least as some already pointed out it also depends on the weapon. just ask beforehand. shortbows good for short distances, towns and such, crossbows and long bows good against armor and in the open (but long reloadtime), throwing thinks depends on the weapon. axes at least hit you hard, knives disturb you, throwing stars would realy do damage, as long as there is no armor.

a bow is as op as a sword. it isn't. it is a tool, a weapon. what makes them op is ppl not knowing how to use them. a bow is most likely a bit deadlyer and a bit more handy, when you know your stuff. but that is the point. to play an archer you need to know more. everyone can play a swordsman, swinging, stabbing and slashing around.

baning ranged weapons partly or in a whole would totaly ruin any immersion. just as always, think before acting. both archer and his victim ;)




PS. someone said a bow has a realos time of 3 secs. that is correct and if you do that you can shoot many...maaany arrows. but none would hit. if -you- have a reaction time of 3 secs for geting the arrow out, aiming accurately, not panicking, adjusting your aim, thinking about weather and wind and -not- thinking about the pointed end of that sword that is getting closer realy fast, well then i will follow you for i have found the legendary robin hood =0

If everyone was wearing a thick layer of plate armour, yes you are correct. Sadly that's not the case because it would ruin immersion if everyone was covered in metal. A trained archer IS almost undefeatable against an unarmed civilian. Firing a bow at an unsuspecting guard would kill them because you could hit them square in the head if it's from a nearby rooftop.
 

Ced

Mountain Bum
Merchant
Retired Staff
MossyMorel
MossyMorel
Merchant
Spark, that's exactly why I keep that kind of combat for my character to a minimum, and try to subtly steer him away from situations where he'd be sat in a tree waiting for an unsuspecting target (unless of course, it had been agreed on OOC beforehand that Ced could make him look like a pin cushion).

A kinda agree with a lot of what people have said here, and I think a compromise is the best thing to do.
It goes without saying that just sitting on roofs taking random pot shots at players is bad RP. Oh your character is just evil and would do that? Tough, find some other, more immersive and interesting way for your character to be evil.
But also, if I give an example: Ced is fighting Amdir. Ced gains distance so that he might fire upon the young knight. Amdir ducks and weaves and zigzags towards him in an attempt to dodge the arrows. It's really up to Rygan whether or not Amdir gets hit, or hurt, but obviously, the closer you get to Ced the easier it would be for him to shoot you.

Just... How hard can it be to play it realistically? :p
 

Menel

Carpet Monkey
Yes a bow is unlikely to kill someone, but they sure as hell wouldn't be able to run away after. if it hits you in the gut, you will likely bleed out, in the chest, you will die, in the head you will die, in the legs, you can't run. The only place that wouldn't pretty much render you useless would be in the arm.



If everyone was wearing a thick layer of plate armour, yes you are correct. Sadly that's not the case because it would ruin immersion if everyone was covered in metal. A trained archer IS almost undefeatable against an unarmed civilian. Firing a bow at an unsuspecting guard would kill them because you could hit them square in the head if it's from a nearby rooftop.
<.< oh come oooon <.<

any trained warrior will win against an unarmed civillian, where is the logic behind that? :D
and slashing at an unsuspecting guard could kill them too. but a guard is guarding so ofc he is at least trained for things like that. ppl are aware that there are ranged attackers. use that. and when the archer can aim at you, you could see him too. use that. if you are a guard you wear a helmet. use that. if the archer is so far away to stay hidden it is realy hard to hit you, even for a master-archer. use that. if he is close you or someone else can better discover him. use that.
a bow isn't at all that accurate. a direct shot would work only over a distance of 70m (70 blocks) for a well trained archer. unaimed shots (sieges) just fiering at the enmy 350 m/blocks. and those are the max-distances. even a small breeze can alter your aim. the longer the distance, the more altered. as i can't get on the server right now it is kind of hard to just guess, but do me the favor and count the blocks from one side of PS-plaza to the other. guessing i would say it is about 50-70m/blocks. that is already the max distance. if you are on a rooftop, ofc the distance is longer then just the blockcount (50blocks distance, 30 blocks high makes a way for the arrow of about 59/60 blocks).
Also a good guard observes his souroundings. if you guard a spot, first thing you do is look out for every archer-spot that could get you in trouble. then you watch them close. guards want to live! they do a job, a profession. it is not just some guy standing around, wearing armor and sword :p
but if the player is so....lazy....to not get into his role well then again, he deserves it. cause the archer used a lot of knowledge and rp to do that one shot.



but okay okay, i am a thinking one and not everybody does that sadly.....
why not do the same thing with archers as we did with magic? first you need to show you don't use it op and that you know your stuff, then you can play an archer. it doesn't need to be that strict though. maybe worth a thought. not needed in my oppinion but if an admin reads all this maybe he likes the idea and can use it^^
 

snipero1

Lord of Altera
I would like a ranged app showing that people won't be OP with the bow. It would make sure no noobs come along and just own an swordsman who's owned as heck... besides, a archer wouldn't usually kill a civilian, no challenge :p
 

Shrimpsy

Lord of Altera
I just want to say something about the dodging...

Sidestepping is extremely difficult, no point arguing that the arrow would hit there, however dropping to one knee and pulling down the head is a viable option.

Try dropping to one knee and pulling your head near your chest as fast as you can. Just try it, right now. If a friend times it, all the better. If timed, it should range anywhere between .25 and .4 seconds.

Now, let's assume the arrow flies at 65 m or 200 ft. a second. Let's assume further that the target sees the archer, pointing the bow at him. Calculating a reaction time of .1 seconds in which the target hears the snap of the bow and sends the command to duck, we calculate average .4 seconds from arrow-shot to fully ducking. In that time, the arrow flies roughly 26 m/80 ft. So, if the archer is 30m/ 90ft. away from the target, it should be possible to duck.

After that, the target could try and attempt to run for cover, while the archer is reloading and aiming again.
 
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