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Restoration - Feedback

Elz

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RESTORATION

F E E D B A C K
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This is the thread for feedback! I ask things are kept constructive and polite. I will also add that the main 'pieces' of the Campaign are still scheduled for July.

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GhostKairo

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Haven't attended an event in a long time! Thanks for all the hard work, DMs, you're killin it

And overall- dope campaign : )
 

Edouard2000

Lord of Altera
I know the campaign hasn't wrapped up yet but I want my thoughts out now rather than later. I will try to be as constructive as I can and if I come off as impolite in certain areas I do apologize. I play one of the Jishrimites involved in this campaign named Leviathan. I've gone to quite a few events in this campaign and have some thoughts that I'd like to share as honestly I can, these are my personal thoughts and take away from the campaign so far. Despite being my own personal thoughts and feelings if people disagree with me that is fine and feel free to explain why you disagree, whether a post here or a dm to me on discord is fine. I go by Trash in the Hollowworld discord. If any of the information is wrong, feel free to correct me on this.

I've not shied away about how I feel on this campaign, a couple of people from our community most probably already know. I genuinely feel that this campaign so far has been rigged from the beginning and heavily against those who play Jishrim worshipping characters. It feels that from the start it was decided that Jishrim would lose life and no matter what actions we took in character it would happen. The biggest example of this being the fight for the child, it was at the crossroads and was supposed to be a 7v7 but became a 6v5 because not everyone was able to show up to the event. We fought and their were deaths on both sides, 4 on the good and 3 on our side I believe, the event concluded however with us being the ones escaping with the child. One of our members were able to get the child and that's how things left off. We celebrated because usually when you play the bad guy on this server you're expected to lose and be the stepping stone to make other characters look cooler. However it was then revealed that one of the people were allowed to track down the child and things were timelocked, this came as a surprise to most of the Jishrim players who attended. The character who tracked down the Jishrim character was allowed to use NPCs to find the location the person headed in, got on a horse and tracked down the carriage and took the child away. The DM allowed for an NPC to be used in this hunt of a player vs player scenario, something I find to be completely unfair. If we are allowing the use of NPCs how will that be regulated, where is the line drawn between information being Meta and hearing it from an NPC. However the Dm gave vital information to the player about the direction the other went in through the use of an NPC. Many of the Jishrim characters felt that this was unfair and I'm certain if the roles were reversed and an evil character used an Npc to track down another character that their would be a quick moderation ticket made.

After this happened most of us just gave up on this campaign, we felt that their was no need to continue even trying if the team running this campaign were going to do something like this. Another example that I feel was rigged was Archon severing the chains that Evil used to hold life. Many probably don't know it but the Jishrim characters went to the place where Archon had died and took his sword giving it to Evil which resulted in all present being cursed (with the exception of our hostage). However that action didn't seem to have any effect on the campaign as well since Archon was given a mundane sword (from what I was told when I asked around on how he got the sword) and that mundane sword was able to cut through the chains easily. So another thing we did and got punished for was ultimately for naught, this part to me felt rail roaded. It felt like the team behind the campaign already had it planned out that Archon would come back and cut the chains in half and that no action we took here would stop that from happening. It was always destined that Life would be free from Jishrim which some have pointed out should've been obvious from a campaign title called Restoration but that flew over my head.

The way things have been going has been nothing more then making us feel like glorified NPCS for the good characters of the server to stomp on and strike a cool victory pose, this is something that I am confident in saying many of the Jishrim characters also feel. To the point that we didn't even plan anything for the Cathedral event, we saw how things were going and didn't even bother forming a plan. We knew we were just going to lose so we just went in with no plan, why bother when you have zero chance of winning and all the server expects you to lose. After all its the role of the evil character to lose. With how the evil characters have been treated in the past and in this campaign, I didn't even feel any motivation to show up to the cathedral event. I only ended up going since I had nothing better to do. I mean we were literally told my Evil himself to go and die for him just to offer more power to him, how would I not feel like an NPC in that situation.

Going forward I'd like to see the campaign be more fair for everyone involved good or bad, however if we're going to continue being nothing more than glorified NPCs. I'd like to know now because I don't want to continue going to events in which I'm always going to be the loser and that's just my role to fill. I don't mind losing, it's just not fun when it's all the time and that's what's expected of you.
 

Fredolator

Lord of Altera
I know the campaign hasn't wrapped up yet but I want my thoughts out now rather than later. I will try to be as constructive as I can and if I come off as impolite in certain areas I do apologize. I play one of the Jishrimites involved in this campaign named Leviathan. I've gone to quite a few events in this campaign and have some thoughts that I'd like to share as honestly I can, these are my personal thoughts and take away from the campaign so far. Despite being my own personal thoughts and feelings if people disagree with me that is fine and feel free to explain why you disagree, whether a post here or a dm to me on discord is fine. I go by Trash in the Hollowworld discord. If any of the information is wrong, feel free to correct me on this.

I've not shied away about how I feel on this campaign, a couple of people from our community most probably already know. I genuinely feel that this campaign so far has been rigged from the beginning and heavily against those who play Jishrim worshipping characters. It feels that from the start it was decided that Jishrim would lose life and no matter what actions we took in character it would happen. The biggest example of this being the fight for the child, it was at the crossroads and was supposed to be a 7v7 but became a 6v5 because not everyone was able to show up to the event. We fought and their were deaths on both sides, 4 on the good and 3 on our side I believe, the event concluded however with us being the ones escaping with the child. One of our members were able to get the child and that's how things left off. We celebrated because usually when you play the bad guy on this server you're expected to lose and be the stepping stone to make other characters look cooler. However it was then revealed that one of the people were allowed to track down the child and things were timelocked, this came as a surprise to most of the Jishrim players who attended. The character who tracked down the Jishrim character was allowed to use NPCs to find the location the person headed in, got on a horse and tracked down the carriage and took the child away. The DM allowed for an NPC to be used in this hunt of a player vs player scenario, something I find to be completely unfair. If we are allowing the use of NPCs how will that be regulated, where is the line drawn between information being Meta and hearing it from an NPC. However the Dm gave vital information to the player about the direction the other went in through the use of an NPC. Many of the Jishrim characters felt that this was unfair and I'm certain if the roles were reversed and an evil character used an Npc to track down another character that their would be a quick moderation ticket made.

After this happened most of us just gave up on this campaign, we felt that their was no need to continue even trying if the team running this campaign were going to do something like this. Another example that I feel was rigged was Archon severing the chains that Evil used to hold life. Many probably don't know it but the Jishrim characters went to the place where Archon had died and took his sword giving it to Evil which resulted in all present being cursed (with the exception of our hostage). However that action didn't seem to have any effect on the campaign as well since Archon was given a mundane sword (from what I was told when I asked around on how he got the sword) and that mundane sword was able to cut through the chains easily. So another thing we did and got punished for was ultimately for naught, this part to me felt rail roaded. It felt like the team behind the campaign already had it planned out that Archon would come back and cut the chains in half and that no action we took here would stop that from happening. It was always destined that Life would be free from Jishrim which some have pointed out should've been obvious from a campaign title called Restoration but that flew over my head.

The way things have been going has been nothing more then making us feel like glorified NPCS for the good characters of the server to stomp on and strike a cool victory pose, this is something that I am confident in saying many of the Jishrim characters also feel. To the point that we didn't even plan anything for the Cathedral event, we saw how things were going and didn't even bother forming a plan. We knew we were just going to lose so we just went in with no plan, why bother when you have zero chance of winning and all the server expects you to lose. After all its the role of the evil character to lose. With how the evil characters have been treated in the past and in this campaign, I didn't even feel any motivation to show up to the cathedral event. I only ended up going since I had nothing better to do. I mean we were literally told my Evil himself to go and die for him just to offer more power to him, how would I not feel like an NPC in that situation.

Going forward I'd like to see the campaign be more fair for everyone involved good or bad, however if we're going to continue being nothing more than glorified NPCs. I'd like to know now because I don't want to continue going to events in which I'm always going to be the loser and that's just my role to fill. I don't mind losing, it's just not fun when it's all the time and that's what's expected of you.
To some extent, I feel the same way, like it's not very inclusive to a great deal of people, and that those involved are kind of given special treatment. I personally don't feel this is impolite if this is the way you feel and even though I don't have a whole lot of experience on this server it just feels from an outsider's point of view that it doesn't seem fair. Also, although I've only had a minor hand in the campaign, it really does not seem fun for those involved, like one giant slog. I'm not exactly sure what to do to improve this, but overall I really wish this to be over soon, as the entire mood has been very dark and dour for a campaign that is heavily flawed, all-encompassing and yet closed off at the same time.

Edit: I want to see this server go on even longer lmao, it's such a great group, the only reason I'm kinda going ham on this subject is because it's just not fun for me, and clearly a great deal of others, and I'm willing to help make better events and campaigns in the future, I might just need direction. Thank you!
 
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Elz

hmm
Events Staff
Very Sweet
Staff
I'll start this with 'constructive feedback is good', and I'd like you to know that in me replying I'm not trying to argue, but it is a good to put my thoughts down and at least attempt to explain something on my end.

I've not shied away about how I feel on this campaign, a couple of people from our community most probably already know. I genuinely feel that this campaign so far has been rigged from the beginning and heavily against those who play Jishrim worshipping characters. It feels that from the start it was decided that Jishrim would lose life and no matter what actions we took in character it would happen.
In a sense, you're not wrong. The campaign was intended to revolve entirely around permitting the opportunity for Life to be removed from Jishrim, but as for 'where she went', that was up in the air. Those who sought to take Life for Jishrim were able to do so, and for a long time now he has held Life under his Court. From then till the campaign, there has been a large collective of players who sought to give Life back to Shalherana, and so an equal opportunity has been given and I've merged it into a campaign that holds a lot of Divine influence (many have wanted a divine themed campaign for a while, instead of the arcane/titan ones). This is the result.

Original intentions were that a thread would be made to allow for 'groups' with their own goals to form, be it keeping Life under Jishrim, returning her to Shalherana, or putting her somewhere else entirely. There is however a great majority in one party, and so that has shifted things - It isn't balanced, it isn't an even fight. It is a lot of players against fewer, and I've been doing my best to work with that.

The biggest example of this being the fight for the child, it was at the crossroads and was supposed to be a 7v7 but became a 6v5 because not everyone was able to show up to the event. We fought and their were deaths on both sides, 4 on the good and 3 on our side I believe, the event concluded however with us being the ones escaping with the child. One of our members were able to get the child and that's how things left off. We celebrated because usually when you play the bad guy on this server you're expected to lose and be the stepping stone to make other characters look cooler. However it was then revealed that one of the people were allowed to track down the child and things were timelocked, this came as a surprise to most of the Jishrim players who attended. The character who tracked down the Jishrim character was allowed to use NPCs to find the location the person headed in, got on a horse and tracked down the carriage and took the child away. The DM allowed for an NPC to be used in this hunt of a player vs player scenario, something I find to be completely unfair. If we are allowing the use of NPCs how will that be regulated, where is the line drawn between information being Meta and hearing it from an NPC. However the Dm gave vital information to the player about the direction the other went in through the use of an NPC. Many of the Jishrim characters felt that this was unfair and I'm certain if the roles were reversed and an evil character used an Npc to track down another character that their would be a quick moderation ticket made.
The Jishrimites who attended were able to set up two web way escape routes, had a rowboat to leave on, had a scorpion set up, had a ballista set up, had about 44 pieces of obsidian scattered around, and had Evil landing players and making spiders. This event was far further tilted towards the Jishrimite side of things and they did win the fighting, and I think despite so many actual characters dying people enjoyed it, or I was led to believe they did.

The part with Daeron chasing Cassandra and using NPCs is, as I've stated before, not something I feel was wrong. I would have given the opportunity to anyone, it was a continuation of the event on the friday but after five hours of DMing I simply had to move it to another time, and I was sure to talk to both Jstar and Kakers in discord to see if they were alright with the things that occurred. As combat wrapped up in the Crossroads, Daeron was able to move to the next location, which is where Cassandra killed two and took the infant. She then went into the Landing, injured child and bow in arm and garbed in a black cowl and robe and took a carriage to Mockingbay. To me, as a DM, this felt like something that could be followed up on, and I went ahead with it because this was still a continuation of the event I'd been DMing the day prior.

The time between these two characters was minutes, 30 at most, IC we had several CRPs going on at once and the spacing got pretty strange, but he wasn't entire hours behind Cassandra. This was not 'two players using NPCs on their own to their advantage' nor was it metagaming, this was storytelling through a DM in a city that has an NPC population. I have used NPCs in many of my events in my time on the team, they're what fill the gaps between player characters. In events I will try to make this more clear in the future, that they are present to speak with if required and so on.

After this happened most of us just gave up on this campaign, we felt that their was no need to continue even trying if the team running this campaign were going to do something like this. Another example that I feel was rigged was Archon severing the chains that Evil used to hold life. Many probably don't know it but the Jishrim characters went to the place where Archon had died and took his sword giving it to Evil which resulted in all present being cursed (with the exception of our hostage). However that action didn't seem to have any effect on the campaign as well since Archon was given a mundane sword (from what I was told when I asked around on how he got the sword) and that mundane sword was able to cut through the chains easily. So another thing we did and got punished for was ultimately for naught, this part to me felt rail roaded. It felt like the team behind the campaign already had it planned out that Archon would come back and cut the chains in half and that no action we took here would stop that from happening. It was always destined that Life would be free from Jishrim which some have pointed out should've been obvious from a campaign title called Restoration but that flew over my head.
I am sorry that the infant interaction has led you and others to no longer with to participate, it was not my intention.

Archon has been on the sidelines, hidden from most of the playerbase, by Daeron and Jenette. It is only relatively recently that he has emerged, but he has been given SP from them both for so long I lost count, and then others contributed too. Items given to him to try and empower him further, he grew from essentially a boulder to a 12ft version of himself at their efforts. He was intended to try and break the chain, yes, for I felt it was important narratively to split Life and Evil in order for the campaign to proceed, born from the efforts of the Shalherana group (just as those who took Life in the beginning were able to do so). This is the point of opportunity that permits the groups to have control over what happens next. Archon having a sword does not matter if it were mundane or not, for his original sword in the ground was effectively just stone. It is the ones that hold these weapons that give them the power they have.

Archon's original sword in the hands of Evil is what allowed for Archon, who has been nurtured and kept safe for this long, to be essentially cut in half and killed off as a result. Archon will not be making other appearances, or aiding them further. Your characters were also punished 'until the end of the campaign', you are not permanently altered forever, unable to change. If I was not clear on that, I apologise, it's been a long week.

The way things have been going has been nothing more then making us feel like glorified NPCS for the good characters of the server to stomp on and strike a cool victory pose, this is something that I am confident in saying many of the Jishrim characters also feel. To the point that we didn't even plan anything for the Cathedral event, we saw how things were going and didn't even bother forming a plan. We knew we were just going to lose so we just went in with no plan, why bother when you have zero chance of winning and all the server expects you to lose. After all its the role of the evil character to lose. With how the evil characters have been treated in the past and in this campaign, I didn't even feel any motivation to show up to the cathedral event. I only ended up going since I had nothing better to do. I mean we were literally told my Evil himself to go and die for him just to offer more power to him, how would I not feel like an NPC in that situation.
I have been trying to give more on the Jishrim side where I could, be it the 'capture' scenarios or monsters in the Landing, but I do understand that you feel like NPCs. I've tried to consider the growing difference in sides and aimed to make conflict easier, make it so death doesn't take people out of the 'fight' for long. The Cathedral event was planned on one side, and not on the other, yes - But both had the opportunity and one one took it. I can see this is because you were demotivated, and prior to the event I tried to come up with something that allowed people to go and still feel like they contributed (and still got to observe IC after) but this was rushed on my end as I wanted to try and make a way for those four who attended to enjoy it somehow even if they didn't win. It was a server event of about 40 people and the majority were again Jishrim/Evil, and I still have to keep that in mind too. I do regret that I didn't think it through more, I can see that you felt like NPCs and that is certainly on me.

The evil characters are not always expected to lose, however. Life was taken, and they could not stop it then, and the Jishrimites have done a great deal of things on the server that are successful to them. From the slum burnings, to assaults on regions, to kidnapping characters (where the Exalted was not punished as the victims all appeared in the Cathedral) and I'm sure there are more instances.

Going forward I'd like to see the campaign be more fair for everyone involved good or bad, however if we're going to continue being nothing more than glorified NPCs. I'd like to know now because I don't want to continue going to events in which I'm always going to be the loser and that's just my role to fill. I don't mind losing, it's just not fun when it's all the time and that's what's expected of you.
I won't punish people for not partaking, I don't want players to feel like they are NPCs, and I've efforts to try and make more conflicts fairer or more even (the crossroads one had even players though someone may have left as you said) and it felt better. Losing isn't fun all the time, no, but I suppose I'm trying to provide fun and events throughout even when the scales seem so heavily weighted. It is just as unfair to not acknowledge the work of those aiming to put Life back under Shalherana, but I can only say I'll try to work on things, because enjoyment for both sides is still very important.
 
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Lannis

You've yeed your last haw
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I know the campaign hasn't wrapped up yet but I want my thoughts out now rather than later. I will try to be as constructive as I can and if I come off as impolite in certain areas I do apologize. I play one of the Jishrimites involved in this campaign named Leviathan. I've gone to quite a few events in this campaign and have some thoughts that I'd like to share as honestly I can, these are my personal thoughts and take away from the campaign so far. Despite being my own personal thoughts and feelings if people disagree with me that is fine and feel free to explain why you disagree, whether a post here or a dm to me on discord is fine. I go by Trash in the Hollowworld discord. If any of the information is wrong, feel free to correct me on this.

I've not shied away about how I feel on this campaign, a couple of people from our community most probably already know. I genuinely feel that this campaign so far has been rigged from the beginning and heavily against those who play Jishrim worshipping characters. It feels that from the start it was decided that Jishrim would lose life and no matter what actions we took in character it would happen. The biggest example of this being the fight for the child, it was at the crossroads and was supposed to be a 7v7 but became a 6v5 because not everyone was able to show up to the event. We fought and their were deaths on both sides, 4 on the good and 3 on our side I believe, the event concluded however with us being the ones escaping with the child. One of our members were able to get the child and that's how things left off. We celebrated because usually when you play the bad guy on this server you're expected to lose and be the stepping stone to make other characters look cooler. However it was then revealed that one of the people were allowed to track down the child and things were timelocked, this came as a surprise to most of the Jishrim players who attended. The character who tracked down the Jishrim character was allowed to use NPCs to find the location the person headed in, got on a horse and tracked down the carriage and took the child away. The DM allowed for an NPC to be used in this hunt of a player vs player scenario, something I find to be completely unfair. If we are allowing the use of NPCs how will that be regulated, where is the line drawn between information being Meta and hearing it from an NPC. However the Dm gave vital information to the player about the direction the other went in through the use of an NPC. Many of the Jishrim characters felt that this was unfair and I'm certain if the roles were reversed and an evil character used an Npc to track down another character that their would be a quick moderation ticket made.

After this happened most of us just gave up on this campaign, we felt that their was no need to continue even trying if the team running this campaign were going to do something like this. Another example that I feel was rigged was Archon severing the chains that Evil used to hold life. Many probably don't know it but the Jishrim characters went to the place where Archon had died and took his sword giving it to Evil which resulted in all present being cursed (with the exception of our hostage). However that action didn't seem to have any effect on the campaign as well since Archon was given a mundane sword (from what I was told when I asked around on how he got the sword) and that mundane sword was able to cut through the chains easily. So another thing we did and got punished for was ultimately for naught, this part to me felt rail roaded. It felt like the team behind the campaign already had it planned out that Archon would come back and cut the chains in half and that no action we took here would stop that from happening. It was always destined that Life would be free from Jishrim which some have pointed out should've been obvious from a campaign title called Restoration but that flew over my head.

The way things have been going has been nothing more then making us feel like glorified NPCS for the good characters of the server to stomp on and strike a cool victory pose, this is something that I am confident in saying many of the Jishrim characters also feel. To the point that we didn't even plan anything for the Cathedral event, we saw how things were going and didn't even bother forming a plan. We knew we were just going to lose so we just went in with no plan, why bother when you have zero chance of winning and all the server expects you to lose. After all its the role of the evil character to lose. With how the evil characters have been treated in the past and in this campaign, I didn't even feel any motivation to show up to the cathedral event. I only ended up going since I had nothing better to do. I mean we were literally told my Evil himself to go and die for him just to offer more power to him, how would I not feel like an NPC in that situation.

Going forward I'd like to see the campaign be more fair for everyone involved good or bad, however if we're going to continue being nothing more than glorified NPCs. I'd like to know now because I don't want to continue going to events in which I'm always going to be the loser and that's just my role to fill. I don't mind losing, it's just not fun when it's all the time and that's what's expected of you.
I'd like to offer a few things in response to this, and I'll try to be as straightforward as I can. Big picture, the premise of the campaign is a player-driven conflict where both sides have the same opportunities, information, and objective ways to influence the outcome; where Life ends up. The crossroads/cathedral events have more or less been the prologue, the thread today is the start of the main deal.

To be real about it, I don't think the overall outcomes are equally likely, but that's a product of the sides being pretty heavily disproportionate and not the outcomes being scripted. The crux of it is that there are two main parties of players that want different things to happen with Life, and the only really fair way to approach anything happening with it is to give them the same opportunities to influence the outcome. More of how that works will become apparent with the coming events, but I guess the main idea I'd like to express here is that the campaign is fundamentally a player conflict, and everyone should keep that in mind with how they approach it. The basis of it should be as fair as possible, and a big part of that is collective player agency should be the main factor in how it goes.
 

Edouard2000

Lord of Altera
Whilst I don't agree with everything you've typed out, I do understand and see some of your points however some need to be properly addressed.

The part with Daeron chasing Cassandra and using NPCs is, as I've stated before, not something I feel was wrong. I would have given the opportunity to anyone, it was a continuation of the event on the friday but after five hours of DMing I simply had to move it to another time, and I was sure to talk to both Jstar and Kakers in discord to see if they were alright with the things that occurred. As combat wrapped up in the Crossroads, Daeron was able to move to the next location, which is where Cassandra killed two and took the infant. She then went into the Landing, injured child and bow in arm and garbed in a black cowl and robe and took a carriage to Mockingbay. To me, as a DM, this felt like something that could be followed up on, and I went ahead with it because this was still a continuation of the event I'd been DMing the day prior.

The time between these two characters was minutes, 30 at most, IC we had several CRPs going on at once and the spacing got pretty strange, but he wasn't entire hours behind Cassandra. This was not 'two players using NPCs on their own to their advantage' nor was it metagaming, this was storytelling through a DM in a city that has an NPC population. I have used NPCs in many of my events in my time on the team, they're what fill the gaps between player characters. In events I will try to make this more clear in the future, that they are present to speak with if required and so on.
This campaign is a player driven campaign with conflicts from other groups. This is not an campaign in which a group is against some enemy that is controlled by the lore team, the conflicting groups are players. I could understand that if it were against actual NPCs you would allow the use of NPCs however when it's a player vs player type situation I don't believe you did the NPCs fairly. Most of this campaign will be player vs player, group vs group because of the conflicting goals. In a situation like this if NPCs were always allowed to be used it should've been established from the very beginning. Their however to my knowledge, isn't any forum thread explaining the use of NPCs and saying that they could be used. When Daeron got to use the NPC to find the location of Broodmother this did not feel fair, this felt like the rules of the game being changed mid way through because it was going in a certain direction that people disliked. If we were using NPCs from the beginning that could completely change someone's course and actions. If their are NPCs we can't see but they are there that will change ones actions. The use of NPCs was unfair and its a can of worms that should not be opened for this campaign unless their are distinct rules to explain how they'll work.

If NPCs exist does that mean we can bribe them to give false information.

If NPCs exist to allow people to get information in the direction I headed, surely I should be able to kill them.

If NPCs can be killed then what's stopping one from raising them as undead.

I can come up with many more examples as to the problem with allowing NPCs, however just saying "NPCs exist and can be used by either side" is far too vague. NPCs should either have a rule set to establish how they work or they should not be used at all. The event's that transpired between Daeron and Broodmother was one that I found to be unfair and felt like the rules being changed mid game to simply get the wanted outcome.
 

Retro

Lord of Altera
Patron
Retired Staff
Retro_hagrid
Retro_hagrid
Patron
My feedback on the campaign.

Sometimes I feel a little unmotivated, because I've been involved in a lot of crp and losing a lot of stuff. But, I mostly get over it and have been relatively chill with everything that's happening. It has been abundantly clear that I can always opt out. However, my involved character would do no such thing so there is a certain pressure that I should be on for every possible event. Alas, I do know to draw my line at some point and take time to relax.

So far. The events have been cool and I'm astonished at how much effort is put into the events. Where DM's have to catch every single emote of a character doing something, especially when the player count is above 20.
 

Edouard2000

Lord of Altera
I'd like to offer a few things in response to this, and I'll try to be as straightforward as I can. Big picture, the premise of the campaign is a player-driven conflict where both sides have the same opportunities, information, and objective ways to influence the outcome; where Life ends up. The crossroads/cathedral events have more or less been the prologue, the thread today is the start of the main deal.

To be real about it, I don't think the overall outcomes are equally likely, but that's a product of the sides being pretty heavily disproportionate and not the outcomes being scripted. The crux of it is that there are two main parties of players that want different things to happen with Life, and the only really fair way to approach anything happening with it is to give them the same opportunities to influence the outcome. More of how that works will become apparent with the coming events, but I guess the main idea I'd like to express here is that the campaign is fundamentally a player conflict, and everyone should keep that in mind with how they approach it. The basis of it should be as fair as possible, and a big part of that is collective player agency should be the main factor in how it goes.
This'll probably be my last reply to this mainly because I don't wish to flood this thread with arguments when it should be about feedback. However if someone wants to reply to my thing Im open to DMs with them about it and they can share those dms around if they wish. I just don't want to derail the main point of this thread.

I want to say that I have no problem is 20 people show up to the Cathedral defense. If people want to set up fortifications, set up ballistas, bring giant constructs against 4 players. Sure go ahead, I find more entertainment from challenges but to each their own. My issue however is that from how I've seen things it seems that staff want this event to go in a certain direction as I mentioned in my previous post. If players go and do things themselves I've no issue with that it's however when staff do things that make it feel scripted. Archon cutting the chains and Daeron getting the baby being my examples of this. I've personally not seen anything that disproves or makes me feel like this hasn't been scripted. I know ultimately we will lose, we're out numbered and out powered. That's how this server is but it just so far feels like the team behind this campaign wants us to lose. I feel like nothing more then a glorified NPC and people typically view the bad guys like it.
 

Elz

hmm
Events Staff
Very Sweet
Staff
Whilst I don't agree with everything you've typed out, I do understand and see some of your points however some need to be properly addressed.



This campaign is a player driven campaign with conflicts from other groups. This is not an campaign in which a group is against some enemy that is controlled by the lore team, the conflicting groups are players. I could understand that if it were against actual NPCs you would allow the use of NPCs however when it's a player vs player type situation I don't believe you did the NPCs fairly. Most of this campaign will be player vs player, group vs group because of the conflicting goals. In a situation like this if NPCs were always allowed to be used it should've been established from the very beginning. Their however to my knowledge, isn't any forum thread explaining the use of NPCs and saying that they could be used. When Daeron got to use the NPC to find the location of Broodmother this did not feel fair, this felt like the rules of the game being changed mid way through because it was going in a certain direction that people disliked. If we were using NPCs from the beginning that could completely change someone's course and actions. If their are NPCs we can't see but they are there that will change ones actions. The use of NPCs was unfair and its a can of worms that should not be opened for this campaign unless their are distinct rules to explain how they'll work.

If NPCs exist does that mean we can bribe them to give false information.

If NPCs exist to allow people to get information in the direction I headed, surely I should be able to kill them.

If NPCs can be killed then what's stopping one from raising them as undead.

I can come up with many more examples as to the problem with allowing NPCs, however just saying "NPCs exist and can be used by either side" is far too vague. NPCs should either have a rule set to establish how they work or they should not be used at all. The event's that transpired between Daeron and Broodmother was one that I found to be unfair and felt like the rules being changed mid game to simply get the wanted outcome.
NPCs work when I'm DMing - I mean to say when I am hosting an event and there are NPCs within it, they can be used. If I have an event at spawn and you cut down some innocent civilians, you are able to do so, and you are able to raise them as undead. You're able to threaten, intimidate, etc as well and in many events this has been the case (HotC campaign, Forlorn, many events in between). With Daeron and Cassandra, they were still in the event that was hosted on friday, I simply had to continue it onward a different day and time. I will consider how I use them moving forwards, clearing outlining them in events, but this was not a case of a mod stepping in on two players and permitting one to use NPCs, it was still an event.

My feedback on the campaign.

Sometimes I feel a little unmotivated, because I've been involved in a lot of crp and losing a lot of stuff. But, I mostly get over it and have been relatively chill with everything that's happening. It has been abundantly clear that I can always opt out. However, my involved character would do no such thing so there is a certain pressure that I should be on for every possible event. Alas, I do know to draw my line at some point and take time to relax.

So far. The events have been cool and I'm astonished at how much effort is put into the events. Where DM's have to catch every single emote of a character doing something, especially when the player count is above 20.
This'll probably be my last reply to this mainly because I don't wish to flood this thread with arguments when it should be about feedback. However if someone wants to reply to my thing Im open to DMs with them about it and they can share those dms around if they wish. I just don't want to derail the main point of this thread.

I want to say that I have no problem is 20 people show up to the Cathedral defense. If people want to set up fortifications, set up ballistas, bring giant constructs against 4 players. Sure go ahead, I find more entertainment from challenges but to each their own. My issue however is that from how I've seen things it seems that staff want this event to go in a certain direction as I mentioned in my previous post. If players go and do things themselves I've no issue with that it's however when staff do things that make it feel scripted. Archon cutting the chains and Daeron getting the baby being my examples of this. I've personally not seen anything that disproves or makes me feel like this hasn't been scripted. I know ultimately we will lose, we're out numbered and out powered. That's how this server is but it just so far feels like the team behind this campaign wants us to lose. I feel like nothing more then a glorified NPC and people typically view the bad guys like it.

I am again sorry that it can be demotivating, and that it feels scripted or railroaded. It is not pre-written that you must lose, and never was, but it was decided that the main piece of the campaign was that Life would be able to be moved in a new direction or kept in the old. Prompting players to work together or get into conflict, to try and sway the outcome. The baby was an extra piece, the Cathedral was the main exposition, the next steps ultimately decide where 'Life' will go, what will happen. I'll do my best to try and make it fun, enjoyable, and to provide opportunities for players. I will not punish players for not participating. If you want an out, but your character would ICly do things, we can work on a reason why they're staying put or unable to partake. No one is being de-ranked or punished for that.
 

Retro

Lord of Altera
Patron
Retired Staff
Retro_hagrid
Retro_hagrid
Patron
I am again sorry that it can be demotivating, and that it feels scripted or railroaded. It is not pre-written that you must lose, and never was, but it was decided that the main piece of the campaign was that Life would be able to be moved in a new direction or kept in the old. Prompting players to work together or get into conflict, to try and sway the outcome. The baby was an extra piece, the Cathedral was the main exposition, the next steps ultimately decide where 'Life' will go, what will happen. I'll do my best to try and make it fun, enjoyable, and to provide opportunities for players. I will not punish players for not participating. If you want an out, but your character would ICly do things, we can work on a reason why they're staying put or unable to partake. No one is being de-ranked or punished for that.
My feedback was to say that I'm more or less pleased with how things are. It's just more on my end over ooc details that are also dragging my motivation.
 

Fronslin

Based on what?
Retired Staff
Fronslin
Fronslin
Good
Been satisfied so far with how things have played out. I know there's alot of moving parts. But I hope it okays out well enough in the end that players don't feel miffed

Oh. And change obsidian. I was under the impression it was getting phased out/reworked soon. But that's not really relevant feedback


This campaign has and will continue to be a source of change on the seever in general. I didn't know that the cathedral was scheduled to get the axe. I'm sure once the shrines get found there will be a pull for players interested to pilgrimage to them but I'm interested to see what goes up In place of it however
 

The_VALKYRIE

Lord of Altera
Legend
The_VALKYRIE
The_VALKYRIE
Legend
Been satisfied so far with how things have played out. I know there's alot of moving parts. But I hope it okays out well enough in the end that players don't feel miffed

Oh. And change obsidian. I was under the impression it was getting phased out/reworked soon. But that's not really relevant feedback


This campaign has and will continue to be a source of change on the seever in general. I didn't know that the cathedral was scheduled to get the axe. I'm sure once the shrines get found there will be a pull for players interested to pilgrimage to them but I'm interested to see what goes up In place of it however
I do however wonder how this emoval of the Cathedral will affect Blessed advancement since specifidaly you are to make an offering at the cathedral for advancement . Until the shrines (if that is the direction were going in) becomes public knowledge it feels somewhat aimless as offerings to other shrines or even to divine grounds of the thematic god don't count to progression
 

Galaxy

Lord of Altera
Lore Staff
Hero
Staff
uhavebeengalaxyd
uhavebeengalaxyd
Hero
I do however wonder how this emoval of the Cathedral will affect Blessed advancement since specifidaly you are to make an offering at the cathedral for advancement . Until the shrines (if that is the direction were going in) becomes public knowledge it feels somewhat aimless as offerings to other shrines or even to divine grounds of the thematic god don't count to progression
i assume that for now it's just assumed that any large shrine devoted to your god works? could be wrong, though
 

Elz

hmm
Events Staff
Very Sweet
Staff
I'd like to make a post here to explain, and apologise.
When I started this campaign, I had a lot of ideas and energy for it, a Divine campaign had been long desired and long awaited after the taking of Life. Another aspect was experimental and not something enforced in other campaigns I'd done, which was the active player against player conflict. Every campaign I have done I've had some element of experimentation, as every campaign ultimately had some sort of failing with it. Parties instead of server-wide groups have become a big thing even now in usual events, in and out of the campaign, for example. Player vs player works on occasion, some people thoroughly enjoy it and others get dread at the concept and want to avoid it where possible. I couldn't have predicted the outcome of it, and I tried to change things up eventually where shrines and so on would have attacks from entities and creatures instead of players, but the core of the campaign remains focused on players having to deal with other players if they want Life pieces. I am sorry that it did not feel enjoyable for some.

The Campaign started to become slower, and more reliant on other members of the events team, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice it. Like I said, I had a lot of energy when it started, but my priorities had to shift in early August as I got news on some real life stuff I've been waiting on since 2020. It had (and has, its still ongoing) to take the focus of my life and it has become incredibly hard to juggle HW with it. I've had a lot of upset, that I've not 'finished' the Campaign as I'd hoped, that it wasn't as good as I so hoped it would be, that I've been unable to be as attentive as I wanted. I feel like disappointing the playerbase at large is what I've managed to do, not given you all something fun and memorable, and I'm sure some will agree and others will not.

Regardless, I'll be trying to get the finale done as I said I would, and with it I'll hopefully wrap the main core of the campaign up and conclude it. After that, I'll step down, and focus on my real life that actively needs my focus for the foreseeable. If people have things they want to enquire about, things within the campaign that feel forgotten or left out, I encourage you to make a ticket with events, so that we can go over it and Solus will be able to see what pieces might be left behind for her to work with.
 

Sir Arc

Lord of Altera
Mystic
Sir_Arc
Sir_Arc
Mystic
Feedback -
Truth be told this about the only Campaign event where I have actively enjoyed the events and am involved in the ongoing conflict. In the past I have harbored a dislike to server events as I feel they pull away from the political roleplay I love the most and hence why I am not active during campaigns. However, after getting pulled into this one I can say that I genuinely enjoy this campaign and the events that go along with it. I find it involving that staff lets players fight against each other for control over artifacts and fragments of Life. Truth to be I'm not 100% up to the current lore, but from what I've experienced I have really enjoyed. The events are interactive beyond what I'm used to and the DMs are involved with about anything your character does. So I have really loved what portion of this campaign I have been able to attend and I'm sad to see it end.

Issues -
At the moment I don't have any current issues, but here I'll address what was brought up prior. I can understand where evil players come from when they say that they feel like the game was rigged from the start, as in past campaigns this was a serious issue for me. Enough to bring me to avoid server campaigns up until now. It does appear that somethings (such as NPC involvement) could have been explained prior to campaign events and such. And I'll agree it does appear unfair when a character is able to track another character through an NPC. But, Elz has explained such and I am okay with how she defended the action. I'm sorry to say but the game was ultimately rigged from the start. While evil players have accomplished much in and out of the campaign, they are sorely outnumbered when it comes to facing those of "good" head on. Not only are there more "Good" Gods with their followers but also a fair amount of mages that boost the numbers and firepower of the "good" side. In these more recent events (The ones that I have attended) I see not many evil characters. From what I have seen this is mainly from times that do not work and the lack of other evil characters within the events. This ties back with my previous thought about how evil characters are ultimately outnumbered, and in some situations outgunned. I'm not trying to tell evil characters that this campaign was fair and they have nothing to complain about because in truth we all see things differently. I'm sorry that there are people that feel like this campaign was unfair for them and I want you to know I know how it feels. My DMs are open if anyone wants to talk about it further.

I appreciate all the work that staff and the DMs have put into this campaign and I hope to see more like this in the future.
 
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