Arrows vs Plate Armor

[DraconDarknight]

F33r the truth between 33:40 and 35:05

Edit:
Forgot to add the video.

2:11 to 2:25.

The title already states what this thread is meant to discuss.

Edit: As requested by @SallyPirate a Short Summary of what this thread is about.

There were several arguments about the effictiveness of Arrows against Plate armor and whether one would even feel the impact in the past.


As you can see in the first video, the Arrow managed to penetrate the armor within the Kill zone, yes. But the padded cloth below it wasn't even scratched.
The same point also shows something else:
The amount of kinetic force left for the wearer to feel is reduced to a point where it is logical to assume that you'd barely feel anything within a Longbows kill zone (20 meters according to the video)


The second video is actually about Japanese Longbows (Aka Yumi), but also compares the two bows to each other.
In a battle of penetration power against ballistics gel (look up its properties if you are unaware of them please) it wins over the Longbow with ~ 12 inches vs 10 inches

As you can see at 2:15(Second vid) (this is btw also the video which I will use as proof that you got more chances with a Yumi, and even that would likely fail).
And note that there is indeed a bit more vibration here - however the helmet isn't mounted on ballistics gel here but a VERY solid stand it didn't even fit on perfectly.

Next thing about it is that people where not necessarily wearing padding in there (although they probably did to a certain extend) but they were wearing something else below, namely mail which is a complex structure of mini chains (yeah very nutshell like I know @GregorWaldstein ) that would reduce the incoming vibrations even more than some padded cloth.

And that doesn't even consider that the helmet used in this video was a kettle helmet, that was a pre-Plate armor invention.

 

[Tybalt]

F33r the truth between 33:40 and 35:05

Also 2:11 to 2:25.

The title already states what this thread is meant to discuss.

Yes, it doesn't go through padding but the body inside it will feel the force of impact.

 

[Moochick]

Yes, it doesn't go through padding but the body inside it will feel the force of impact.

Not very much force though due to the armor and padding soaking a majority of it. At least that's what I would think. Would have to remember the dark semester of physics to know for sure.

 

[DraconDarknight]

No, not really.
Everything you may potentially feel will swing across the armor and the padding will pretty much give the rest energy , no pun intended, the rest.
And Knights didn't just have padded cloth below the plate, they had chain mail and other things too.

The low amount of actual kinetic energy left is actually proven by the video too, as the high speed camera would have shown a lot more vibrations if it was still feel able to an extend it would actually bother you.
The second hint to it is the state the arrowhead was in afterwards.

Edit: @Moochick sniped me ><

You'd have a lot more chances with a Yumi, which has an additional penetration power of 2 inches against ballistics gel.

He also refers to the point of getting hit by it while on a horse within that time frame btw. and pretty much confirms that they were not thrown off the horse.
Moreover I think it is the very same video that talks about the horses getting hit when they got thrown off but I've watched enough documentaries to not remember every single one.

(Bar the one about Katana vs Longsword, but only due to the horrible use of the Longsword vs the somewhat correct use of the Katana, so yeah that guy was totally biased. Not the same who did this one though )

Not very much force though due to the armor and padding soaking a majority of it. At least that's what I would think. Would have to remember the dark semester of physics to know for sure.

Agree with this.
I think the High speed camera does it too

 

[BarbarianGaming]

@GregorWaldstein I think we actually talked about this battle or another one like it once. And after the English Longbowmen had shot arrows at the knights they saw that the knights merely pulled them out and kept marching. And that took a chunk out of the English morale.

 

[Tybalt]

I doubt (I'm not for sure tho) that there would be as much padding in the helmet no? And thelat the head is a sensitive part of the body

 

[Axex]

Extremely difficult to land a non-glancing arrow against later medieval helmets however, as they were slanted all over.

 

[BarbarianGaming]

Most helmets were made at an angle so the arrows would just bounce off and not really affect them at all. As for the padding underneath alot of knights had mail coifs or arming caps.

 

[DraconDarknight]

I doubt (I'm not for sure tho) that there would be as much padding in the helmet no? And thelat the head is a sensitive part of the body

First off THIS:
(Kudos to Brogan for sparing me to write this too)

Most helmets were made at an angle so the arrows would just bounce off and not really affect them at all. As for the padding underneath alot of knights had mail coifs or arming caps.

I showed a similar video with a helmet too earlier, which fell victim to the deletion.

As you can see at 2:15 (this is btw also the video which I will use as proof that you got more chances with a Yumi, and even that would likely fail).
And note that there is indeed a bit more vibration here - however the helmet isn't mounted on ballistics gel here but a VERY solid stand it didn't even fit on perfectly.

Next thing about it is that people where not necessarily wearing padding in there (although they probably did to a certain extend) but they were wearing something else below, namely mail which is a complex structure of mini chains (yeah very nutshell like I know @GregorWaldstein ) that would reduce the incoming vibrations even more than some padded cloth.

And that doesn't even consider that the helmet used in this video was a kettle helmet, that was a pre-Plate armor invention.

 

[Tybalt]

Most helmets were made at an angle so the arrows would just bounce off and not really affect them at all. As for the padding underneath alot of knights had mail coifs or arming caps.

Mm I'll take your word for it. My knowledge sticks to bows and arrows and their properties, not armor, but I try to use common sense

Just you have to realize, RPing against invincible tanks that every time I've known people to fight they would say

• Arrows don't work at any range
• Swords are ineffective (they are unless you are handspring
• Maces don't work either (which were designed to cave in plate :l)
• You have to have heavy weapons that are unfeasible to carry around anywhere (much like your plate)
• We can swim in it
• It doesn't effect our running because we trained while running in it over time(physical abilities can only go so far, no matter how much training someone does any added weight that is not muscle is going to weigh you down.)
• Were still pretty vulnerable
• This fact was never directly stated, but it seems no one takes into account that your field of vision is Heavily impaired aswell as hearing if you have a helmet on.

All in all, fighting plate folks are rather irritating and it's very OP, much like if a bowman would always go for headshots, which if I can and my character has a chance to shoot an ordinary criminal in a non-lethal area I do that instead unless under very critical circumstances. (Like someone else is going to die if you don't)

See, many armored folks I didn't expect to get in a fight with it ends with an arrow emotes released to the head and then another stating it's OP.

Well a lot of times it's the only option.

And when heavy equipment is used against them like a windlass crossbow or whatever the name for insane weight crossbows they are, the person in the near unbeatable plate would ask where would you get that, nobody carried it around etc, even if the person using it is two feet away fromtheir home and could have just picked it up. ending in usually the crossbow being voided and the person dieing with every attack failing against the others armour.

Ehh kinda going off topic so I'll leave it at that.

 

[DraconDarknight]

Its the plate armor's actual properties, it actually and historically posses, unlike back flips against swords.
As for the actual weight it puts on you and how mobile you are in it parts of it are in the very same video (and no, no one says its light) i'm pretty sure there was another one where they showed actual medieval plate armor training, and believe me its hard

As for maces not working on them - yeah describe your mace and when in question ask a staff member or refer to the first video.

Oh and since you put in that nice targeted provocation Tybalt (yes I saaw that):

Wounding someone in plate with an arrow is the equivalent of someone getting out unharmed when doing a back-flip against a weapon already striking down on you and getting out unharmed.

That aside, bowmen were never meant to fight against plate armor.
Plate armor was to be fought by certain other weapons which are a topic of another thread, and the mace can even be seen and was stated to be effective in this video.

And I can assure you that running isn't exactly easy and will wear you down after a while, yet very possible.

Can you SPRINT in plate armor?:

I doubt it.

The best proof for this is the military packs (just the backpack weapon helmet and so not the Tross -Sack). Its extremely heavy yet we had to run and jog with it while I was in conscription.
And believe me it was less of an issue running around with the (what does a military pack weight 95 lbs?).
And note that these packs are far less evenly distributed than a plate armor.


Was it nice to do that? No it wasn't.
Does doing it often increase your muscles strength? Very much so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighted_clothing

Edit: To note they even made us do (I think it was 10 )10 military push ups. Note the way they counted those 10 push ups we were actually supposed to do 50.


You can even buy weights for your legs and arms for jogging purposes, btw. , and if they wouldn't help with the growth of muscle strength people wouldn't buy them.

Bowmen were never meant to fight against plate.

But that is too far of a dereailment from the original thread topic now so if you want to continue this aspect, I think its better answered in 'A Point of Wearing Plate Armor' thread which is much more generalized.

 

[Tybalt]

Its the plate armor's actual properties, it actually and historically posses, unlike back flips against swords.
As for the actual weight it puts on you and how mobile you are in it parts of it are in the very same video (and no, no one says its light) i'm pretty sure there was another one where they showed actual medieval plate armor training, and believe me its hard

As for maces not working on them - yeah describe your mace and when in question ask a staff member or refer to the first video.

Oh and since you put in that nice targeted provocation Tybalt (yes I saaw that):

Wounding someone in plate with an arrow is the equivalent of someone getting out unharmed when doing a backflip against a weapon already striking down on you

~ ment it as a joke my Freind~ more than anything

 

[Patrickdxs]

"Wounding someone in plate with an arrow is the equivalent of someone getting out unharmed when doing a back-flip against a weapon already striking down on you and getting out unharmed."

Erm, I don't want to anger anybody, but just clarification. When you say this, are you saying that if using a bow and arrow, I injure someone who is in plate armor, I am a power-gamer?

 

[DraconDarknight]

"Wounding someone in plate with an arrow is the equivalent of someone getting out unharmed when doing a back-flip against a weapon already striking down on you and getting out unharmed."

Erm, I don't want to anger anybody, but just clarification. When you say this, are you saying that if using a bow and arrow, I injure someone who is in plate armor, I am a power-gamer?

It was a reference to something I've heard actually happened, so don't mind the back-flip part (also thanks for re-railing this).

The point of this thread is, as stated in the first post, that the wearer wouldn't get hurt in the first place because the plate armor would make the arrow head blunt as hell and absorb the vast majority of the kinetic energy fired against it.
There is another Video(Which i believe I posted in the a point in wearing plate armor thread) where someone tried it with a crossbow (even with all the different kinds of bolt-heads) and the result was pretty much the same - a leather Jerkin or a Padded Cloth would have saved the man in plate from even a scratch, and you should know that the plate used there was likely of less quality than the bolt's used.

I have yet another video where they compare longbow and crossbow in that regard, but its made by that guy that, in my opinion, was extremely biased towards the Katana in the Katana vs Longsword documentation already (loads of commentators on you tube agree) so I'd really like to not submit this specific one. The other one where they tried the different bolt-heads seems legit though.

There are certain bolts which may result in what was already clarified doesn't happen with the bow (thus heavy hits), although it was a personal test of a normal person, so I doubt there was a high speed cam involved, so we can't really assess the amount of vibration that happened upon impact. - it was done with a distance of less than 20 meters though and still didn't yield really more promising results than the 20 meter lab test, that fired the entire 140 mph of a longbow against a plate.

The first video explains pretty well what happens with the arrowhead when you shoot it.
The only thing I can answer with a definite yes or no according to the experiments done in the videos above here is whether it is realistic that you will hurt them, to which I got to say: VERY unlikely that they will get actually hurt.
There are lots of factors in that, but lab test in the first video was pretty much (simulated to be) shot from a distance where the bow would have its maximum strength. (Even explained in there).


I can only stress it again:
The best way to fight plate armor is donning plate armor in combination with certain (melee) weapons.

Usually if you see a plate armor getting shot in a movie its either done for the drama effect or they used modern steel vs medieval steel in their research.

 

[Gregor]

Let me get on the entire plate armour and how to beat it later.

Tybalt, maces were not made against plate.

Hammers were.

 

[Axex]

During the Middle Ages metal armour and chain mail protected against the blows of edged weapons and blocked arrows and other projectiles. Solid metal maces and war hammers proved able to inflict damage on well armoured knights, as the force of a blow from a mace is large enough to cause damage without penetrating the armour.

One example of a mace capable of penetrating armour is the flanged mace. The flanges (protruding edges of metal) allow it to dent or penetrate even the thickest armour. This variation of the mace did not become popular until significantly after knobbed maces. Although there are some references to flanged maces (bardoukion) as early as the Byzantine empire c. 900[1] it is commonly accepted that the flanged mace did not become popular in Europe until the 12th century, when it was simultaneously developed in Russia and Mid-West Asia.

From wikipedia, not the best source, but better than nothing.

 

[Gregor]

Maces are tough. They have existed for a very, very long time -- they're essentially just the Club 2.0, really -- and it's unknown how often they were used. One advantage of them is that they are cheap to produce and easy to train on, so it's probable that in the early Medieval period, they were fairly common, especially flanged maces that could penetrate the popular chain mail and scale mail of the time. For knights, however, again, better options existed, and while some probably used maces, the rest probably realized swords, and then hammers and pole-arms, were a more effective and versatile option.

 

[Gregor]

Also, here is the true OP plate armour.

Look at that, /no/ free spots

It might seem a bit silly with its steel butt, but take a good look, this is the first time a man could be fully encased in steel plates, even the inside of the elbow is tiny overlapping plates.
This is so sophisticated that it was studied by NASA when they were trying to design the first space suits.

THIS, is OP plate armour.

 

[Michcat]

... steel butt...

 

[Gregor]

... steel butt...

The problem with my character's plate armour that it has an exposed butt and thighs. If snuck up upon, or shot from behind my character is dead meat.

Or people could . . . y'know, attack my character when he is just doing stuff on the street without his armour.