Minecraft PvP & Dice in RP

[dUMMY]

Ahem, Minecraft PvP is a bit deeper than people have been leading on, especially since this server has MCMMO, but this is not the place to discuss it.
I will say only this and no more in this thread: Minecraft PvP does not accurately portray the type of roleplay fighting that goes on in this server. However, the type of roleplay fighting on this server seems to have gotten so detailed and ingrained with what equipment characters use and the techniques that they employ that nobody can actually roleplay a fight as a master swordsman(as many of our characters seem to be) unless they are a master swordsman IRL.

With each move a master swordsman character makes being dictated by the player, the master swordsman will make all the poor choices of an amateur because an amateur is who is deciding when, where, and how they swing their sword. I really think we need to take a step back in detail when it comes to how we roleplay fights. Dice rolls aren't exactly beautifully descriptive, but they can eliminate a lot of the arguing and confusion when it comes to how we are supposed to fight and what technique/weapon combination beats what other technique/weapon combination. Because, really, when we get too detailed in how our characters fight, they will come out looking like fools, because none of us know what the fudge we are doing when it comes to being an ultra badass swordsman/archer/doctor/blacksmith/anything. We are PLAYING these roles, not taking them on IRL. When it comes to our characters learning/discovering/noticing something through RP it should be up to the characters to figure it out or not with the limitations of THEIR minds, not our OOC minds.

For example, John(Character) is trying to pay Abby(character) with fake money. John's player needs to tell Abby's player that the money is a clever forgery or whatever and Abby's player needs to figure out if Abby(Character) would be able to tell that it is fake. But what I seem to see happening is that John's player will give Abby's player a description of the money and if Abby's player doesn't know that this doesn't fit in with the way IC money is supposed to look then Abby(Character) will accept the money even if Abby(Character) is supposed to be clever enough to spot it right away.

I think this is huge de-rail, so I'd ask that if @Baron, you decide to remove this comment, would you please place it in a new thread in the RP Discussion section as I would like to encourage conversation on the topic.

 

[BarbarianGaming]

This isn't about PvP more about dice rolling for actions. In my opinion you cannot and should not use dice rolling for actions or combat unless you have an actual D&D character sheet that has been approved to line up with your characters skills. Sometimes I see normal characters (farmers, Shopkeepers, etc.) fighting a more skilled character in combat and using dice rolls which I find for a lack of a better word stupid. This is merely my two cents and my opinion, if I have offended someone who does use dice rolls in combat I apologize.

 

[dogbew]

What I reccomend I a system with wars with PvP at the base. There are ways to make a class based PvP, if anyone recall the #ctfarena thing from way back when.
In this system, both sides would enroll everyone they have in rp and be given reasonable gear in an instance to be fought over.
The common "you stole my sweetroll" fight would be up to whomever participates, and really doesn't need a huge deal made over it.

 

[Squidziod]

nobody can actually roleplay a fight as a master swordsman(as many of our characters seem to be) unless they are a master swordsman IRL.

I think is a very important statement, because it describes an aspect of RP that is painfully true, and one very difficult to overcome. It's hard to do something, hard to teach something, and hard to describe something if you don't know much about it in the first place. That being said, lot's of folks know lots of things about a large variety of topics, but we still run into this issue. Combat is one example yes, but it branches away from just that. I mean think about it, I (try to) teach people how to become a surgeon, that isn't something I can actuality do IRL. I don't know, I just though that this is focus point on the issue.

 

[Lannis]

My personal stance on the matter is that at least some OOC knowledge on what you're doing goes a long way to improve both the quality of RP and the immersion of others. While it's certainly true that expecting things to be executed with perfect correspondence to real-life actions is unreasonable, I feel there's something to be said about rewarding accurate moves and punishing foolish ones; if a character professing himself to be a master swordsman decides to spin like a top in RP, it would be exceedingly simple for an amateur swordsman to stab him in the back for his inefficient and tactically poor choice of attack.
More so, I feel an emote that details the realistic technique used and its effects, with some accuracy and with reasonable allowance for reaction, is more compelling to receive the benefits of said technique than one that gives a move and attributes result to being a master swordsman.
The internet is laden with resources to get the basic gist of most medieval practices. Even a basic knowledge is enough to make a character look really damn competent- For instance, Jaret started doing Korog summonings with blacksmithing practices that I learned in a week or so from websites and a few books. Information's out there, and a bit of learning doesn't hurt.~

As for using PvP to decide RP fights- Even with McMMO, for the bulk of combat that the serverbase will engage in equipment quality will play a much larger role in outcome than McMMO statistics. And while there is something to be said about richer folk in medieval times having an advantage in combat on the basis of equipment, most of the Prot4 sets that we'd see running around don't translate to what that character has access to. Furthermore, Minecraft PvP does not in the least bit simulate actual effectiveness of weapons and armor in a realistic context. Pitting two dissimilar weapons against each other in an RP fight allows the opportunity for their respective advantages to be played- For instance, in an armored duel a polehammer is a far more likely victor than an arming sword. RP combat allows for discussion and implementation of the relative strengths and weaknesses of moves and weapons, where solely PvP would boil down to folk bashing each other with the highest-damage item they can get their hands on.

Now, for the big but- My preferred system relies on some OOC knowledge of techniques and weapons by both parties. This can usually be puzzled through and explained mid-fight, but much of a detailed technique description is lost if the opponent has no idea what you're talking about. Makes things somewhat more complicated, and the server isn't currently the best environment to ply detailed technique. That said, I still advocate education rather than implementing a simpler strict roll system or use of in-game PvP.

 

[Spark]

I fully agree with Man. It would be almost impossible to have a large scale battle with text RP, we've worked this out before.

 

[Valonyx]

My point is simply;

RP fights for duels and small skirmishes.

PvP fights for grand battles, wars or long skirmishes with more then 5 players involved (depending on the situation).

 

[Tybalt]

My point is simply;

RP fights for duels and small skirmishes.

PvP fights for grand battles, wars or long skirmishes with more then 5 players involved (depending on the situation).

Aye, but then you have people like me with craptops

 

[Gregor]

"Cant be intelligent IC if not intelligent OOC"

I think RP fights only work if
both parties dont dislike eachother.

I avoid combat RP entirely myself.

 

[dUMMY]

This isn't about PvP more about dice rolling for actions. In my opinion you cannot and should not use dice rolling for actions or combat unless you have an actual D&D character sheet that has been approved to line up with your characters skills. Sometimes I see normal characters (farmers, Shopkeepers, etc.) fighting a more skilled character in combat and using dice rolls which I find for a lack of a better word stupid. This is merely my two cents and my opinion, if I have offended someone who does use dice rolls in combat I apologize.

I totally agree, I wouldn't support un-doctored dice rolls. They should be modified to reflect a characters skill and whatnot.

I think is a very important statement, because it describes an aspect of RP that is painfully true, and one very difficult to overcome. It's hard to do something, hard to teach something, and hard to describe something if you don't know much about it in the first place. That being said, lot's of folks know lots of things about a large variety of topics, but we still run into this issue. Combat is one example yes, but it branches away from just that. I mean think about it, I (try to) teach people how to become a surgeon, that isn't something I can actuality do IRL. I don't know, I just though that this is focus point on the issue.

Yup, this was just about the heart of the topic, thank you, Squid.

My personal stance on the matter is that at least some OOC knowledge on what you're doing goes a long way to improve both the quality of RP and the immersion of others. While it's certainly true that expecting things to be executed with perfect correspondence to real-life actions is unreasonable, I feel there's something to be said about rewarding accurate moves and punishing foolish ones; if a character professing himself to be a master swordsman decides to spin like a top in RP, it would be exceedingly simple for an amateur swordsman to stab him in the back for his inefficient and tactically poor choice of attack.
More so, I feel an emote that details the realistic technique used and its effects, with some accuracy and with reasonable allowance for reaction, is more compelling to receive the benefits of said technique than one that gives a move and attributes result to being a master swordsman.
The internet is laden with resources to get the basic gist of most medieval practices. Even a basic knowledge is enough to make a character look really damn competent- For instance, Jaret started doing Korog summonings with blacksmithing practices that I learned in a week or so from websites and a few books. Information's out there, and a bit of learning doesn't hurt.~

As for using PvP to decide RP fights- Even with McMMO, for the bulk of combat that the serverbase will engage in equipment quality will play a much larger role in outcome than McMMO statistics. And while there is something to be said about richer folk in medieval times having an advantage in combat on the basis of equipment, most of the Prot4 sets that we'd see running around don't translate to what that character has access to. Furthermore, Minecraft PvP does not in the least bit simulate actual effectiveness of weapons and armor in a realistic context. Pitting two dissimilar weapons against each other in an RP fight allows the opportunity for their respective advantages to be played- For instance, in an armored duel a polehammer is a far more likely victor than an arming sword. RP combat allows for discussion and implementation of the relative strengths and weaknesses of moves and weapons, where solely PvP would boil down to folk bashing each other with the highest-damage item they can get their hands on.

Now, for the big but- My preferred system relies on some OOC knowledge of techniques and weapons by both parties. This can usually be puzzled through and explained mid-fight, but much of a detailed technique description is lost if the opponent has no idea what you're talking about. Makes things somewhat more complicated, and the server isn't currently the best environment to ply detailed technique. That said, I still advocate education rather than implementing a simpler strict roll system or use of in-game PvP.

Yup yup, I had originally written that some background knowledge can bring a lot of color to RPs, but edited it out and forgot to put it back in. Thanks for pointing this out!

But yeah, a -little- background knowledge should be all that is required. Not that going all out is a bad thing or that it shouldn't be done, but a player certainly should not need to study a ton to play a role. People have to study enough for their educations.

Read my quoted post above, please. I'm seriously sick of the excuse that someone has a bad computer or bad internet. Large scale battles cannot be RP fights. It doesn't work.

Looks like he was pointing out a circumstance, not making an excuse. Even if he was, take some meds and hold your sickness down before it spreads. I still love you.

 

[Fronslin]

I actively avoid combat JUST for the reason I have to write a paragraph of text for a small amount of moves, most of the time it's not going to be fully understood or the other person is going to take forever to decide what to do.

In real combat you don't really have the time to think like that

I'd rather use dice rolls for faster combat RP with each action being a 1 sentence blurb and then you rolling for the affect.

Of course when we talk about modifiers I'm not entirely against it, but I don't think we could implement it that easily.

 

[dUMMY]

I'd rather use dice rolls for faster combat RP with each action being a 1 sentence blurb and then you rolling for the affect.

Of course when we talk about modifiers I'm not entirely against it, but I don't think we could implement it that easily.

All of this. That would be my ideal RP combat system.Though, modifiers and stuff are very hard to implement, like you say. I believe @Naelwyn lamented that he would like a DnD style character sheet for our characters here, but it is, as you said, a monstrous task.

 

[Fronslin]

on that note, If such a system WERE implemented. I think the complex Rp should still be allowed.

I may not be good at it but that shouldnt stop two willing parties from duking it out with descriptive fighting.
(or vice versa with dice)

They can be some of the most fun to watch fights, but they still take time.
(I wish you could script complex fights like this ahead of time so they take less time, maybe for events? Eh, I'm getting ahead of myself here)

 

[Patrickdxs]

It's late so my idea won't be very fleshed out, but perhaps something like this:

Your given a set amount of points when you first log in, and a set of skills (MCMMO skills for instance) that you can accolate these points to, then once these skills have been assigned to how you want your character to work, you then start raising these new "stats" via the MCMMO mechanic we have that I personally think is underused in RP for how much work went into configuring it, and as your MCMMO level rises, perhaps even being risen artificially by staff who have confirmed your Role-Play training of the skill, you gain stats towards the skill you trained in MCMMO (or other similar plugin). Then, every time you switch character, your stats are reset, and your given new points to spend to change the new characters skill set to something more appropriate. Finally, these stats are added onto your rolls, so that they have a higher /chance/ of selecting higher numbers (A higher base roof to pick those numbers from), thus keeping the randomness of roll RP, while giving incentive to increase your ability and skills through in game interaction, and to do as many RP skill trainings as possible.

That's just my thoughts, you could do a Forum version, where people would have their character stats along side character analysis on the forum, but I really am pretty amature at this, so I don't know if these ideas would work.

 

[Fronslin]

Sounds like a plugin that would be nice to have on the nametag plug-in (Thats not the name...)
the one we discussed that had descriptions and whatnot?

But it does not work on this version so we could not do it.

 

[Patrickdxs]

Sounds like a plugin that would be nice to have on the nametag plug-in (Thats not the name...)
the one we discussed that had descriptions and whatnot?

But it does not work on this version so we could not do it.

There are other plugins that could work.

 

[Atravim]

I strongly disagree with anyone who aims to win in role play or considers role playing to be something competitive, But I am always open for discussion

I haven't been around on hollow world much, I'm some what of a drifter on these role play servers. But this of course is a common subject, one that every community has to face, supposedly. But before these issues are even dealt with, I believe we have to look at what gets us to this situation in the first place. Why do we need to etch out a detailed and fair system for combat? It comes down to something very simple, at least as far as I have been able to work out. Years upon years of us all playing games, if only days of it, have lent us a deeply engraved mindset of winning. This kind of thinking is sadly not going to get you any where in role play, as much as we are playing a game, the objective of role play is not to win. This is true for me at least, this is all opinion after all.

When faced with an obstruction, a puzzle to solve, an adversary to overcome. The two or more members involved in the scene should both have the same goal in mind, 'How can I make this interesting, how could I prolong this into an arc of events that would help this character grow'. But when the two are facing against one another with the hopes of winning or beating the other, things will always fall into shambles. As much as our characters may face off against one another with their own aspirations to win, we the role players should be aspiring to tell stories, and develop more role play. When you kill your character's opponent, you cut a story short, you don't win.

 

[Narvendel]

While I agree with your view on general roleplay, it doesn't line up with reality. Competitions, undetermined battles, or pretty much anything where there's a factor of chance is made better when stats and dice/percentile systems are involved. It's not about who is winning, it's about not knowing and not wanting to cross into power-gaming to have a chance at achieving a favorable result for your own character. There's a difference. When you're simply trying to win, you'll likely stop at nothing to get your way. When you go route two, you're accepting of either result, but would be more or less likely to succeed over the average Dave when performing actions in which your character is more or less experienced, naturally apt, or prepared. In pure roleplay, it'd be terribly difficult for an average character to do a to an unwilling character in which the unwilling character has been a pseudo-master of since they came out of the womb. Stats lend aid in settling the matter as there's more concrete display of development through roleplay, no power-gaming to be had, and a chance, however slim, for a character of lesser stature to topple a giant, which is reflective of real life.

As for video games ingraining the will to win over all else, that's not really true. There are some games that work that way, yes, but there are many others that simply do not. Those games are about the journey, interesting outcomes, or participating in a social network.