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For the Infernal - I have released the lore to excorcism: https://hollowworld.co.uk/threads/the-fiendish.53935/What about folks attempting exorcisms? Do those need to go through the event requests?
It cool, 10/10I'm still open to public feedback if anyone has any. Though I have a general idea of what went well/what didn't go well.
and"-Fiends and Gods do not coincide as one abhors the other and the other defiles their meaning."
(I myself had been empowering Geormorren by non-violent means, - and he hinted vaguely on fighting, - but not necessarily a conquest.)"Casted out from gods and goddesses, the Abyssal aren’t looked at fondly".
THE HELLSCAPE NETIZENSCorruption crept into the hearts of mortals.
Greed, Envy, Hatred and Anguish slowly consumed them one-by-one. Upon the fall of Grief, there remained Corruption, taking over those that sought enlightenment from the constant war of men, gods and beings. The Fiends rose and shifted through the cracks of the Realm’s rifts, bringing Corruption with them. They possessed and offered the mortals their desires..
Desires beyond their trifle lives. ..But it came with a cost.
To add, furthermore:Although they have a brutal appearance, these creatures tend to passively roam the lands of the nether unless provoked or otherwise threatened.
<> Yiozora:Underlin are passive creatures, content to roam the nether as they see fit. Some Underlin have gathered together in tribes of sorts with a ‘protection in numbers’ mentality. They do not often attack other creatures of the nether unless first provoked. Most Underlin are intelligent enough to create and use weaponry as well as cover themselves in piecemeal armor and some have even taken to constructing primitive structures to protect themselves from the elements.
<> Viands:These creatures are either born to defend their creator and follow their bidding, or they roam and live to enact their own purpose around the realm they end up adapting to. The Yiozora do not become aggressive or fight unless they feel threatened, are looking for a challenge or are hunting. They do not shy away from killing if they are committed to a battle, never backing down even at the prospect of death. They otherwise choose to keep themselves in their mindless roaming.
They aren’t born, but are created within dark rituals by the Fiends that make them and release them.
They are obedient creatures, listening to their initial orders when they first come into the world. But, when not in immediate subservice to their overlords, the Viand are chaotic and aggressive creatures that take joy in destruction
You say Fiends couldn't had strategy to act more peacefully, - so they can evade the doom of being crusaded by Alterans, to not repeat Queen Grief's fate?These creatures are on a large spectrum of intelligence. Some are clever and quick to understand strategies and predicaments.
I read the whole post I just thought this line was the best jumping-off point.All I could find on forums about fiends being evil, violent, malicious, and corruption being at play, - is this:
In DnD tieflings aren't necessarily evil, so are warlock, empowering their patron. I do not see how IRL semantics, influenced primarily by Christianity, negates any of my points, Dee.I read the whole post I just thought this line was the best jumping-off point.
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While I think adding nuance to it is fine, the term "fiend" is a strictly malicious term in any use--at best it's an informal term for an addict, which still seems like a derogatory or other-ing use to me. You do you, but the concept IC and OOC seems pretty specifically 'evil' oriented no matter what way you cut it. The terms "infernal", "abyssal", "hellish" and so on all fall under that blanket too.
That's not to say "hey, this should be condemned as non-human and killed" OOC; people make their own choices IC firstly and secondly if a new transformation/mutation/system is offered, people will obviously involve in it in some capacity, and I don't think that's grounds to punish or persecute them OOC. People will do what they think is cool or generative OOC no matter the system.
There are various reasons to why Possessed are the more persecuted race/mutation/power system on the server than others.Corruption is pure evil --> All the fiends are corrupt evil --> contracted empower fiends --> contracted are evil by THE definition --> severe backfire, persecuted - are driven out of the world
Arcane magic causes planar convergence, as moral/amoral as kinetic energy can be --> Arcane patrons can be whatever morally --> ? mages do not empower them but destabilize the Veil by own actions ? --> mages are somewhat bad --> occasionally challenged by the few, overall are coexisting peacefully - are integrated in the world
Vyresism is just a mutation - amoral, neutral --> Skraag is somewhat evil? --> vyres empower Skraag --> vyres are ??? --> at large tolerated, - now rarely targeted, integrated in the world
Spiritblessing is just a parasite, a neutral mutation? --> elementals are amoral, neutral? --> spiritblessed ??? let small elemental live in them ??? --> no one persecutes or bothers about them
Mens is neutral, depends on thoughts and beliefs of a person ? --> Figments can be whatever ? --> figment followers by empowering it engage in heresy and cause major world changes --> are persecuted by some to most for they destabilize the world, are integrated in the world somewhat
??? --> Gods are ??? --> blessed empower gods --> most of blessed are good ---> have internal fights, - rarely targeted by mages or fiendish for fear of repercussions - are integral part of the world
Claim
1. Corruption lore, treated as pure evil force, - is polarizing. It turns, irrespective of any actions, all fiendish players evil just by the fact of engagement into the system. A system, which doesn't demand or incentivizes players to commit evil acts. Yet, ostracizing and persecution are at play.
2. Corruption lore is unfair and restrictive. If corrupted beings are an exception and cannot be influenced or transformed, like any other entity can be on HW with the right amount of player effort, - then why it wasn't stated to players committing to the system? There are fiendish players who build entire new regions and communities, who have major character development revolving around the infernal identity, and who had been hardworking on saving their patrons from being gang-killed by 2-3 factions, and all of that despite:
RP isolation
Constant fighting
Arguing
New players being not recommended to play fiendish
3. Corruption lore is inconsistent. If corruption is the pure force of hatred and evil, why then some of the intelligent corrupted netizens of Hell are written as peaceful, or why players interacting with fiends were not warned that they are nothing but destructive, hateful beings, that can't be changed?
4. Corruption lore is simplistic. Pure good and evil make world simple. The best stories revolve around morally grey characters, - it appeals to us. There is realism in it. From game's perspective, the world would be richer and more player friendly, if gods were not whitewashed and demons were not demonized, but if each was power hungry, having different but equal in the magnitude adverse effect on the world. Be it planar convergence, or terraforming, or whatever. If the actions mattered, and not the label. And actions done by players. Not DMs, campaigners, who's intention is to entertain.
5. Corruption lore is inexplicit. There isn't page for this incurable vile force, - and effects of it and mechanics aren't written or public, despite it potentially majorly affecting characters for players - altering their mode of operation, personality, morals. It isn't written either in any of the fiendish pages.
This corruption lore bleeds into OOC, - becoming not a matter of perspective of a character, but taken as the meta fact of the server, which in turn, is taken as an unalloyed truth IC by the "enlightened and right" characters. I think this lore should be revised. If corruption was not necessarily a metaphysical evil force, but as a mutational-physical one, as vyreism, arcane, or blessing, are, then it would not antagonize the players and fiends irrespective of their character and actions. If there were drawbacks to being blessed, as clear as planar convergence, - it would help too. For as world is written, - being blessed is the objectively right choice. If rather all people empowered their patrons - irrespective of their nature - through idiosyncratic methods - which may be moral or immoral, just beneficial and fitting for the patron, - then it would improve also the situation, and add diversity to the world and remove this meta-righteousness, this main hero syndrome that makes the environment uncomfortable. It would equalize all.
Below you can read lore material I quoted from the pages, with supplementary commentary thrown in replying to the discourse of 8th of July from #rp-discussions - that supports this "evident" idea that fiendish players had been well informed and conscious of this corruption=bad idea, - therefore they should bite the bullet, and:
1. Be unable to affect fiends, while all other entities on HW can be affected with enough player effort.
2. Have their patrons killed and characters exorcised when the campaign ends, with all the mechanics of theirs removed - it was for funsies to spice up the story for the heroes fighting against demons.
All I could find on forums about fiends being evil, violent, malicious, and corruption being at play, - is this:
<>ABYSSAL & SCION PAGE
For morals, - you aren't asked ANYWHERE to go and kill players, or even harm deities - it just says: and (I myself had been empowering Geormorren by non-violent means, - and he hinted vaguely on fighting, - but not necessarily a conquest.)
<> There is mention of Virtue in the Scion thread, - is it the "pure good" metaphysical substance that gods have - that whitewashes them, that is the opposite of corruption? Are these pages by chance written from blessed's perspective, or is it the objective lore - gods are good, - demons = bad?
THE FIENDISH PAGE
<> Isn't explicit, - it speaks of negative concepts like Envy and Hatred, - but why can't people have good emotions fueling Anima, feeding off fiends? We are what we eat. Similarly to Mens for Figments, and gods. And what is corruption - force of pure evil? Detach yourself and think from perspectives of a newbie or even experienced players, - can you derive this lore that corruption is the incurable evil force destroying the world from these few sentences I could find on it?
THE HELLSCAPE NETIZENS
<> Undelins are written as mutated alterans, - who, despite CORRUPTION, - aren't evil.
To add, furthermore:
<> Yiozora:
Are CORRUPTED guardians created by FIENDS.
<> Viands:
You say Fiends couldn't had strategy to act more peacefully, - so they can evade the doom of being crusaded by Alterans, to not repeat Queen Grief's fate?
THE HELLSCAPE HANDBOOK
<> There are hints on things like language changing in Hell - "familiar with demons of old will not recognize it as the old vile language, but can sense the corrupted tongue".
So, please, understand my indignation, when some lore staff or players in the discussion make it clear cut and say that: A. it is very clear corruption is an evil force and you fiendish players made a knowing, conscious decision, when there is all this evidence above. B. If we ignore the corruption - that demons are bad - look at their actions, -- done by DMs and not fiendish players. And by not all the fiends. C. You cannot change fiends as they are corrupt - therefore inherently evil. All others can work with entities, no matter their nature, - but you cannot. Your player experience doesn't matter.
I do recognize that implings and lesser fiends behave viciously and are a danger akin to feral vyres, but nothing forces Abyssal to enforce infernalism on unwilling people, - abyssal can also avoid altogether path of progression through them.--One's personality will gradually have mood swings and bouts of tantrums or fits. Instead of making logical choices, the possessed might make impulsive or emotional decisions, often for the betterment of their own safety or desires. If the Fiend’s presence is long term and more severe, the possessed might actions that ultimately seem unlike them. They are then prone to making mischievous actions, schemes or causing grief towards others. --
Honestly the concept was awesome when it started but I feel like war fatigue has set in. A common thing in most rp scenarios, whereas it feels like a slog to get through with little to no prorgress (at least in my side of things) going on. One of the few events where my character was in with a general felt like no matter the case we were meant to die. I understand it was a bit of an Enigma case but I'm still putting it here as a but of feedback; things happen I understand. I actively told my playerbase not to get involved because of this fact though as some of them have nearly nothing in terms of combat stats like my character does and I didn't want them getting bodied in hell for little to no gain. Personally I'm not upset over the death now as I realize what the situation was, but I feel it's hard for lower level players to get involved with the hellscape events if thats the experience given. Perhaps I'm wrong, which is completely possible, but I just wanted to put these forward. Thank you.I'm still open to public feedback if anyone has any. Though I have a general idea of what went well/what didn't go well.
I don't really see how we can argue about the degree of lacking morality for Archfiends when at least around three have performed immoral or have been empowered by immoral actions. The Ivory King killed thousands and as far as we can gauge wanted to conquer Altera. Dranoden has been empowered by murderous cultists and has repeatedly promoted or killed various people, the new demon the Oblisk kidnapped like 10 different characters and enslaved them. You don't really need corruption to be pure evil, but it certainly contributes to that.After a productive discussion with klypto, - I recognized a flaw in my reasoning, - and therefore will be adjusting it here.
In the initial arguing I spoke of the need to adjust the long-established lore of what corruption is as an evil essence, - but there is no need for it in fact. It was an unfitting suggestion that dismissed server's core lore. I fell to a reasoning - that a droplet of corruption causes one to act evil, - yet, - as lore of the beings shows, it isn't true. The case of Underlins being at large peaceful, despite being corrupted, the case of the minotaurs - Yiozora, - who are probably even more corrupted, being not evil, along with scion and abyssal who retain free will, means that corruption at certain levels doesn't lead to pure viciousness. I also recognize that Infernal (lesser fiends) according to lore are vicious, dangerous beings, akin to feral vyres.
Infernalism is a trade off between control and abilities they grant (mimicry + night vision).
I do recognize that implings and lesser fiends behave viciously and are a danger akin to feral vyres, but nothing forces Abyssal to enforce infernalism on unwilling people, - abyssal can also avoid altogether path of progression through them.
I do think Archfiends and abyssal are different to infernals and imps, as beings of higher intelligence and with developed personalities, and of higher rank as fiends. I think they do not necessarily have to spread corruption (corruption created for example underlins and abyssal and scion, who still retain free will) in a violent all conquering manner, - following footsteps of Queen Grief. My speculation on Archfiend's intention to keep some foothold in Altera and be satisfied with it, as it ensures their existence through worship from a following of people, isn't anyhow unfounded. The fact other archfiends chose the violent, all conquering, old Queen Grief's way doesn't dismiss the speculation either. What would prove my hypothetical wrong and all-conquering intention right (it isn't proved yet) - would be a confirmation from staff from fiendish team of this. But so far there had been no response yet. We also cannot argue Archfiends are inherently evil as they are composed of unknown level of corruption - as are Underlins and Abyssals who maintain free will and can control their emotions. Yes, actions of some do show violent nature of demons, - characters have right to judge them according to them, but not on OOC level painting them all with the same thick brush, - without the confirmation. Meaning, - perhaps there is no need to change fiends at all, - just offer them alternative way of living, by those who wish to do that.
I have an additional piece of lore from infernal page.
--If the Fiend’s presence is long term and more severe, the possessed might actions that ultimately seem unlike them. They are then prone to making mischievous actions, schemes or causing grief towards others. The intensity of this side of them will vary over each soul--
Kosta's interpretation of corruption as a cancer is quite useful, - that it is a disease that takes over people's will at some level of it. When inclination to be violent is dominating person. With everyone having different levels of tolerance to it, - and response.
Of course, - all of it is a speculation, until fiendish campaign team makes confirmations. Whether Archfiends are inherently evil and have the goal to conquer and corrupt all of Altera, - or any of the other raised points.
I've tried to condense the impact of Fiends after the Ivory King a lot more to those that do want to take part and not the whole server. That's why the Twisted Star Arc is set in a specific area and location, mainly. The reason why it feels like there's so much Fiend content is because players are pushing for it. They're asking for summon events, for demonic hunt events. Fiends also provide a more tangible, intelligent opposition, as opposed to the undead. I'm doing my best keep the flow of Fiend content slim by spreading out these events and having people focus more on player run events, but it helps when players themselves push for it to find the content that they like and they enjoy.Honestly the concept was awesome when it started but I feel like war fatigue has set in. A common thing in most rp scenarios, whereas it feels like a slog to get through with little to no prorgress (at least in my side of things) going on. One of the few events where my character was in with a general felt like no matter the case we were meant to die. I understand it was a bit of an Enigma case but I'm still putting it here as a but of feedback; things happen I understand. I actively told my playerbase not to get involved because of this fact though as some of them have nearly nothing in terms of combat stats like my character does and I didn't want them getting bodied in hell for little to no gain. Personally I'm not upset over the death now as I realize what the situation was, but I feel it's hard for lower level players to get involved with the hellscape events if thats the experience given. Perhaps I'm wrong, which is completely possible, but I just wanted to put these forward. Thank you.
I've introduced Scions. They appear as Infernal but have no magical link to Fiends.Would a softcure-like work around be the solution to the divide? Perhaps when the campaign has reached it's conclusion, a softcure could allow fiends to retain some of their hellish roots but remove the connection to corruption.
This would allow the fiendish player base to continue in a slightly different system. I think this would lower the perceived threat of the fiends to a point where there will still be hostility but not necessarily seen as a threat worthy of being wiped out.
Fiend hunters can use the knowledge, experience and skills in regards to this softcure race. Evil fiends who escape to this new system may resume their conflicts with humanity and be hunted down. What happens to the good and neutral fiends can be determined through rp.
We're working on something viable in the current animancy rework that'll help arcane involve themselves with excorcisms. I may direct people to attempting a gestalt, as well, and am open to working with arcane to establish something.This isn't really feedback, But I feel like the amount of things mages can do to help the situation when it comes to things like exorcisms is lacking. Though part of this is because that sort of research would be hidden behind an arcane ticket. Do you think it would be possible for animancy to affect the outcome of an exorcism when used in conjunction with normal rituals? I think it would be cool to give the morally grey animancy that option, and it could also affect things like hallowing which hasn't been as fleshed out as much.