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A Discussion about the Logic of Interracial Characters/Relationships

Immerael

The Shadow Admín
Retired Staff
Consider this before having a Human and Elf get together


I just wanted to bring to light some issues with Human and Elves getting into a relationship on the IC logic of the situation. Please keep in mind this is an OOC breakdown of IC logic of why I think this should be very rare, and certainly far rarer than it is on HW. Also this is not a knock at any one player or one group. This is just something I’ve observed over my two years being here now and was just prompted to finally write on it due to recent discussions. You are free to disagree but before you tear it apart please read what I have to say.

Elves are a long lived race. Their average lifespan is between 250 to 300 years of age across the board under lore. Seeing as HW players tends to max out life spans that would realistically go to 300 years. Humans with modern medicine can expect to live around their 80s. Give or take a couple decades based on a myriad of factors. Medieval life expectancy was much lower with an average of 30 due to the high infant mortality rate, if you survived to 18 you could reasonable expect to extend that number to your mid sixties.

The reason I bring up lifespans is the obvious disparity between them. A human at modern 80 years life span lives a little over ¼ of the lifespan of an Elf. When adapted for normal human lifespan in the medieval period of 64 it goes to Elves living 4.6 times longer than humans. This is roughly the same number of a dog's average life span of 14 years compared to humans. Meaning Elves would likely come to see humans as something akin to our beloved canine companions at least in lifespan comparisons.

It would be a taboo likely to become too close to humans because quite simply you are going to watch them grow old and die. In the same time it takes an elf to go from kindergarten to graduating High School (Not actual years but the equivalent to a human lifespan to elvish) the Human has been born, grown old and died.

This would be a huge mental burden as anyone who has raised a puppy or kitten all their life and watched them grow old and finally pass away can attest to. Step this up a notch to that kitten or puppy was capable of talking and forming social bonds on the level of a human, the pain of becoming too close to a human would simply prove too strenuous for many Elves to risk forming any meaningful bonds.

Now stepping away from the pet analogy and onto the main point. Marrying and having children. Imagine for a moment that you are an elf and approached by a human who wants a relationship. Before you reached middle age, the human will grow old and die and you will have to bury him or her. Not to mention be their primary caretaker in their older years.

Then imagine you have children with this partner and you have a fifty fifty chance of them being human. This would be terrifying to the Elven partner. Not because of some perceived racism but because the Elvish parent would raise their human child, watch them grow up, have kids of their own and then die of old age having to bury their own child. Then do the same thing with their grandkids having to bury them all again. Depending on when they do this it's highly possible that an Elvish parent could see five to six generations of their descendants live and die before they finally die.

You say, but Imm they can have Elvish children too and we can choose! You choose OOC, IC your characters have no way of knowing if the child is human or Elven. Instead they would spend the entire time of the pregnancy waiting to see if it was human or Elven. At least until 9 months where if it's born then boom human baby, later it's elven.

All this to say Elves who get in relationships with humans are going into a suicidal relationship. As they know barring war, disease or some terrible accident they are going to watch this loved one die of old age and risk having to see their own children die. This kind of emotional trauma could easily drive someone to insanity. There is no lets grow old together in a human and elven relationship. Just heartache that they see coming from the very beginning.
 

Sankera

Lord of Altera
In-Game Tech Staff
Merchant
Staff
Pronouns
He/Him, They/Them
Sea_of_Fog
Sea_of_Fog
LegendMerchant
tumblr_olocazxu4M1r37pceo1_250.gif

STOP. MAKING. ME. SAD!!!!!!!!!!
 

CatalystGaming

Lord of Altera
That's the tragedy of it. It's sad, but that in no way makes the situation unviable-- If the two characters love one another, they'll likely bear the burden regardless. It is an interesting point to consider when Rping these characters, and something I think many may have overlooked.
 

Blorbis83

Lord of Altera
Legend
Pronouns
He/Him
Blorbis83
Blorbis83
Legend
I agree with everything Imm said, but there's one issue: the current human lifespan.


I don't think I've seen any human characters survive to 50, but considering almost no one here gets sick and dies from dysentery like they should- I feel like the whole "humans live to 60 because Middle Ages" is kind of invalid now. I'm not saying humans are living to 100 or even 80- but that's because characters are constantly getting killed or shelved. Some people (like myself) just plain forget to age them/forget how our aging system worked. (Gotta remember to have Theo's birthday in the next four months) This is mostly due to the fact that- while we all age our characters- we do it kind of slowly or at different speeds. Some more than others.

People didn't just drop dead at 60 either, I need this to be clear- though I'm sure everyone knows this. People died back then due to war, disease, and poor nutrition- and that was generally the poor.


Don't believe me? Who here has actually had their character get fleas and lice, then die of scabies or the bubonic plague? No.

Malnutrition? Rare here. Most characters seem well fed and healthy. Humans grow up to six feet tall- which is wildly inaccurate considering that humans were generally 5 feet, 5 inches in the Roman times and through the Middle Ages.


Stillborns and death while giving birth? This is a bit more common, but again- Diamond Azerwind is pumping out babies left and right.


Why? Why is this?

Well, because we're holding a suspension of disbelief- almost all the characters here are of nobility- or at least middle class, so there's less propensity for death. Especially considering how boring it would be to live as an actual person back then. You'd still have to pay taxes, harvest your crops all day, and do an ungodly amount of other droll activities. Like in real life.

Not saying it's bad (and I'm not bashing anyone)- it's actually rather helpful, but we have to keep in mind that if we're going to cite historical mortality rates, we actually should. Start living to 80, people. I know it sucks, but you know, it's gotta happen.

Or- and this is controversial- just remove aging all together until it's convenient for someone's character. Of course, this could lead to people going from 6 to 100 in two days, which is unrealistic. But perhaps, with some rules in place, it might work?
 
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Immerael

The Shadow Admín
Retired Staff
I agree with everything Imm said, but there's one issue: the current human lifespan.


I don't think I've seen any human characters survive to 50, but considering almost no one here gets sick and dies from dysentery like they should- I feel like the whole "humans live to 60 because Middle Ages" is kind of invalid now. I'm not saying humans are living to 100 or even 80- but that's because characters are constantly getting killed or shelved. Some people (like myself) just plain forget to age them/forget how our aging system worked. (Gotta remember to have Theo's birthday in the next four months) This is mostly due to the fact that- while we all age our characters- we do it kind of slowly or at different speeds. Some more than others.

People didn't just drop dead at 60 either, I need this to be clear- though I'm sure everyone knows this. People died back then due to war, disease, and poor nutrition- and that was generally the poor.


Don't believe me? Who here has actually had their character get fleas and lice, then die of scabies or the bubonic plague? No.

Malnutrition? Rare here. Most characters seem well fed and healthy. Humans grow up to six feet tall- which is wildly inaccurate considering that humans were generally 5 feet, 5 inches in the Roman times and through the Middle Ages.


Stillborns and death while giving birth? This is a bit more common, but again- Diamond Azerwind is pumping out babies left and right.


Why? Why is this?

Well, because we're holding a suspension of disbelief- almost all the characters here are of nobility- or at least middle class, so there's less propensity for death. Especially considering how boring it would be to live as an actual person back then. You'd still have to pay taxes, harvest your crops all day, and do an ungodly amount of other droll activities. Like in real life.

Not saying it's bad (and I'm not bashing anyone)- it's actually rather helpful, but we have to keep in mind that if we're going to cite historical mortality rates, we actually should. Start living to 80, people. I know it sucks, but you know, it's gotta happen.

Or- and this is controversial- just remove aging all together until it's convenient for someone's character. Of course, this could lead to people going from 6 to 100 in two days, which is unrealistic. But perhaps, with some rules in place, it might work?
I'll admit the way we age or lack thereof in HW devalues a lot of my argument. Due to simply time works when we want it to and not when we don't want it to within the confines of 1 year a week or 1 year per year. With that you can effectively hold a child in the same age group indefinitely, a warrior in their prime, etc etc regardless of race.

However the argument was mostly pointed at the NPC folks or IC veiw point where most folks do age at a reasonable rate, and lifespans mean things. I know of a few characters who have died of old age but they are generally shelved during this and get little RP. I know I did one myself with a James Blackfire, when the whole Blackfire experiment collapsed and I hadn't played him for forever.
 

Immerael

The Shadow Admín
Retired Staff
but i want to be aragorn and arwen
You're getting on the boat and going to the undying lands. I don't care if you love him its a teenage crush and get on the boat right now little missy or I'm taking away your iPod.
-Elrond
 

Auriel

Lord of Altera
Lover
Auriel_
Auriel_
Lover
Coming from the person (m'self) who basically made character(s) who had no issue with the latter mentioned problem, I see no issue.
 

Jstar

Exitus acta probat
Lore Staff
Good
Staff
JstarGames
JstarGames
Good
Surely there are some elves out there who simply wish to enjoy the time they have with a human, rather than focus on the inevitable end. Spend a lifetime of joy and happiness with the one they love and treasure those memories.
 

The Courier

Lord of Altera
Haha. . Yeah, most of my Char's old friends are dead from old age already. I think Elfa HogoShi_Kitsune is the only remaining one from way back when. Even then, he's aged about roughly 60ish years since I started playing him.
 

Immerael

The Shadow Admín
Retired Staff
Surely there are some elves out there who simply wish to enjoy the time they have with a human, rather than focus on the inevitable end. Spend a lifetime of joy and happiness with the one they love and treasure those memories.
Note: No where does the thing I say humans and Elves would never interact and even marry, I merely say it would be rarer than it is now, similar to Tolkein than our current slash fiction style of RP. Though even among those who do enjoy their time with human companions, having children together would be something they likely would try to avoid. Cause you have a 50/50 chance to essentially pass on a condition that the elf would see as ensuring a child would only live to be like 20.

All the Lifetime movies of parents with children in these condition drill into our heads that they can find some sort of healing in enjoying the time with their child and cherish their memories. Which is true mostly because that is the only option available to them and keep living their lives. However, these conditions IRL are extremely rare and unable to be predicted or prevented really other than not have kids. In an inter species relationship there is a huge chance fully half and easily predictable.

And again I'm not saying you cant do this. Its just to realistically do a inter species relationship you should acknowledge these factors. You could make some good RP and a hell of a lot of melodrama about these issues if RPed correctly and give folks lots of things to do and contribute to character development. Even if the child is Elven and say the father or mother was human good RP could come out of it as the child would could have an arc "All my people spend centuries with both their parents I watched mine grow old and die before I barely matured."

As I said this before this isn't targeting anyone but more food for thought to hopefully raise RP quality and enjoyment for everyone.
 

Michcat

i'm the wench if you're the cake ;)
Is it better to have loved and lost, or to have never loved at all?


I have a few characters who've died of old age (and by 'a few', I mean two). My short-lived human-y characters never came across this conundrum, but a few of my long-lived ones (One who declares themselves immortal, a Caparii, and an Elf) definitely have it impact their lives.

The Mage is going to have a daughter that will likely die long before her. She follows a very lifetime-esque philosophy of "cherishing every moment", and is likely ruining said daughter by spoiling and indulging her waaaay too much.
The Caparii has a group of human friends, one of them her lover, and absolutely dreads the day they grow old without her.
The Elf comes from a family where his Father was human, his Sister is human, his Mother is Elven and so is he - He got to watch firsthand how much they age in the "short while" he is away. He tries not to think about it and doesn't talk much to his family anymore (Although that's another can of worms).

So- with what Immerael was saying- The impact on my characters has been mostly terrible sadness, with one of them swearing off these kinds of shortlived-longlived relationships "forever and ever".
 

Vincentius

A miserable little pile of secrets
Lore Staff
Lover
Hero
Staff
Vinsintius
Vinsintius
Lover
It's a tragic truth that can be implemented long before either party even begins nearing death. I think the whole ordeal can bring up a treasure trove of unpredictable RP that'll result in loads of character development, for better or for worse when it comes to the mental states of those involved. The relationship could either completely shatter under the weight of the truth, or the pair could grow ever stronger together until ultimate demise.

Regardless, as others have stated, it's kind of difficult to truly drive the human to old age and inevitable death due to the messy aging system/lack of a proper system altogether.
 
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