Dear HollowWorld,

[mokwar]

Not like that, I used it as an example of staff taking actions without telling us why.

Cutting it very shortly down:

I, Mokwar, wish that players could be better informed with the reasoning used, when staff and or managements makes changes.

I am not talking for everyone since I can't, but this is something I feel like I need and want.

Sorry scardrac, but I fail to see what there is to dislike in this post. I can see why you would dislike some of my other posts, but this is a simple request that I tried to make gentle and gentle.

 

[Scardrac]

I'm entitled to my opinion, as well as the right to express it with means provided.

I know you didn't say I am not. I am simply explaining why.

 

[mokwar]

I'm entitled to my opinion, as well as the right to express it with means provided.

I know you didn't say I am not. I am simply explaining why.

Why do you take it that I wanted you to remove it?

It is natural for me to be concerned if there is a dislike, as I want to find out what the problem is and learn for the future. What I am curious about is why you chose my least dislikeable post, in my opinion. When I posted it I honestly tried not offending anyone, but also get my message out. I personally hate the dislike button cause it is pointless and without an explanation a dislike might as well useless. I don't like the dislike button on any site and I have never seen the reason they are there.

 

[Scardrac]

My reasoning shall remain undisclosed to you. I apologize.

 

[mokwar]

My reasoning shall remain undisclosed to you. I apologize.

Then tell me how much your dislike is worth other than a red number on my profile. However if that is what you wanted, go ahead.

Dislikes is one of the worst ratings due to it's strong message without and further explanation.

 

[Scardrac]

I'm not the one to decide how you take the dislike. Or, as you call it, the red number on your profile. There are a lot of dislikes on this thread. Nobody is stopping to complain about it. It's a rating given through opinion of the post or topic at hand. Or other reasons. I will not be sharing mine.

The dislike rating is only bad if you decide to take it as something that bad.

 

[SallyPirate]

This is -the- reason that Riddleport left in the first place Cherbert. I cannot thank you enough for showing the side that we were afraid of. There has always been drama that the players show but are just swept under the rug for no one to see. The crown is probably the best evidence for this. I can easily say that players who have problems are demonised by the "club house" that has been formed within the staff. Believe me, this "club house" is not everyone in the staff but it still a constant issue that is being brought up time and time again. The amount of times that great and intelligent people have been hurt from this just keeps on rising.

1. There is no 'club house' Staff are friends and have friends outside staff, sometimes a majority of friends are the staff, but that doesn't make them biased nor does it mean their friends get some exclusive permission to get right into staff. Staff are considered due to several things, namely maturity, the ability to handle arguments, not take things personally (This isn't an exact requirement, we can't ask people to stop feeling) and the ability to keep up with updates and not nag staff for every issue under the sun. These can go range from asking staff too much about stuff that is clearly on the forums, to nagging them every single time something doesn't go their way.

Of course I know some of that's vague but I'm just hoping I'm being coherent at this stage. But I'll end it with "If it was a club house, that means every friend of staff would become staff. I can say with 100% certainty that that's not true, I have trouble getting along with a few staff (Personality clash, I don't actually have anything against them) and most of the time I barely know some of the new mods until they get mod, or council.

Staff are suggested because of activity on forums and ingame and their general attitude towards staff and definitely other players and despite previous issues, we have generally fine-tuned the system again and again, is it perfect? No, because timezones restrict us from knowing everyone and we can't really know everyone personally when we want to get some RP done with friends, host events and manage fights/some word I've forgotten.

What people have forgotten is that this is a server for the "PLAYERS". Some people just refuse to accept that this isn't their place to run around and do what they want, this is a server that is meant to take care of the players. I am not saying that you need to hold our hands and make sure -everything- suits us. But ignoring our problems with the staff and server is simply unacceptable.

The fact that people are ganging up on people for disagreeing with the "club house" just proves the point even more.

This is a team effort, I think it's fair to say this server should be for both sides, it wouldn't be fair at all for staff to not be allowed to have their own fun. Of course I mean that for the players as well, this shouldn't be a players vs the staff at all, and that's what I strive to fight for every day, I want this server to be as fair as possible and we're still actively working on that. It's still not perfect, but progress is progress. I know I keep saying this and I want to link those threads I linked earlier- but we are trying, we're inviting players to build important buildings, buildings that future players will see- ones that'll stick around for ages (the /spawn cathedral and even the permissions shop!)

And while I'm sure it needs lots of work (We actively take notes!), we're trying to do this for events too. Despite the rants and anger and threads of staff angst- we're learning and we keep trying to improve what we're doing, I think it's fair to say none of us have hosted a server in the past or managed large events with 30+ players- it took a few times for Mich and Nael to realize that Sub-DM's were a great idea and they tested them immediately! I loved how quickly they were willing to change their tact and the way they plan things just to make sure others feel included.

I'm sorry if myself or any of the staff gave the impression of ganging up on anyone, we were offended initially because the apology was taken in a way that there was some lashing out towards staff, myself and a few other staff are quick to defend each other. I'm not sure if it's wrong or not, because I know I'd defend any of my friends regardless of their rank... unless that friend does something wrong and I see it clear as day- then they get a good talking to.

Also, these threads have been constantly popping up over the years, why isn't things changing?

We left the first time for this exact reason.

I hope that we can finally all grow up and acknowledge the fact that problems have occurred in the past. I know that things can seem hostile and that everyone is ganging up on you but the thing is, we all just want what is best for everyone and sometimes what is best for everyone is to stop trying to fix everything. Instead, lets just fix the problems.

Can you define your version of constantly please? and give links to these constant threads? If said threads were directed towards the exact same staff member every single time then yes it's a huge issue that needs to be remedied as soon as possible, or as well as we can manage at least.

Umm- Did you leave because of the threads or the reason of the thread? I'm sorry but that's being quite vague and I'm not sure what you mean, if you mean the "Ganging up" thing, then can you please link the part where someone's getting ganged up on? I'm under the impression ganged up on means the same as what it sounds like, multiple people picking on one person to (in this case) either scare them away or make them change their opinion to match the majority. The only thing being discouraged here is blatant hate towards both players and staff.

 

[mokwar]

1. There is no 'club house' Staff are friends and have friends outside staff, sometimes a majority of friends are the staff, but that doesn't make them biased nor does it mean their friends get some exclusive permission to get right into staff. Staff are considered due to several things, namely maturity, the ability to handle arguments, not take things personally (This isn't an exact requirement, we can't ask people to stop feeling) and the ability to keep up with updates and not nag staff for every issue under the sun. These can go range from asking staff too much about stuff that is clearly on the forums, to nagging them every single time something doesn't go their way.

Of course I know some of that's vague but I'm just hoping I'm being coherent at this stage. But I'll end it with "If it was a club house, that means every friend of staff would become staff. I can say with 100% certainty that that's not true, I have trouble getting along with a few staff (Personality clash, I don't actually have anything against them) and most of the time I barely know some of the new mods until they get mod, or council.

I am not gonna post to much in detail, only if needed, but this "club house" is something I also have seen, I have not experienced problems with it, as it is people that I don't socialize that much with and it haven't gotten in my way, but I have seen it and I believe that is one problem here.

It is not as bad as given and it was worse for around 1-2 months ago, so it is going the right way, but it is there.

 

[SallyPirate]

I am not gonna post to much in detail, only if needed, but this "club house" is something I also have seen, I have not experienced problems with it, as it is people that I don't socialize that much with and it haven't gotten in my way, but I have seen it and I believe that is one problem here.

It is not as bad as given and it was worse for around 1-2 months ago, so it is going the right way, but it is there.

I don't really understand it though. If it was some kind of special club house, wouldn't that mean that barely any of the staff wouldn't get along with players? I'm under the impression that each staff member has a few close friends inside staff and a few outside.. If there was some form of bias, as I said- wouldn't this club be more obvious that friends only would be on the staff/council?

 

[mokwar]

I don't really understand it though. If it was some kind of special club house, wouldn't that mean that barely any of the staff wouldn't get along with players? I'm under the impression that each staff member has a few close friends inside staff and a few outside.. If there was some form of bias, as I said- wouldn't this club be more obvious that friends only would be on the staff/council?

What I think the problem is something that were discussed in another thread I believe.

There might be some players that the staff favors and therefor they get allowed to get into, what do you say? More interesting things. In big events it usually ends up with the staffs character that leads the role and those in the club house get to be unfairly more important in those events, than the other.

Now before people answer. This is only based on what I see and this might be very vague. I have not experienced this myself, I think, and I haven't encountered the problem, but I have seen people who do.

I won't say with who or how many, but this is actually close to something I have debated with people a lot.

 

[Gaby]

I don't understand why my post was edited and Michcat's two/three sentences of text removed? It was entirely unpersonal and contained literally nothing secret, insulting, etc. The only reason I can think of for removing it is that it contradicts what actually happened? Again, transparency seems to be a rather large issue.

I have had problems in the past with revealing information that other people had implicitly trusted me to keep a secret.
I am a naturally honest person, who tends to reveal intimate details about myself to total strangers. while I have little problem with having my skype messages shared with other people, I also have come to understand that other people do not feel the same as I do.

Michcat exchanged skype numbers with me so that I could be tutored on the details of running a Pathfinder campaign. she has trusted me enough to talk with me about things on this server, even though I am not staff. there is a great deal of trust in that, a trust that I would rather not break by wantonly sharing details of our skype calls without her permission.

I am a touch concerned about explaining why she preferred I did not post that, because I feel it would be the same breach as the original post that I had removed. if you would like, Ced, I could explain to you privately, as you are a moderator.
it's honestly very simple.

 

[Gaby]

... I also wish to say something else.

we have taken this thread to discuss the events surrounding Michcat's demotion, the precedent for this event, the reasons for demoting Michcat, and possible actions to take in the future.

the first post in this thread is an apology on Michcat's part to anyone she may have wronged so badly they had to complain about her to the staff. I don't think we've really bothered to read and fully listen to it. we're all posting huge swaths of text, but Michcat's letter to the server appears to be a case of tl;dr.

I have been told I offended, wronged, and irrationally treated many members of this community. I have been cruel and this negative attitude is no longer worth the damage it does to the Server, to HollowWorld. I have been a presence so terrifying it dissuades any from speaking out or speaking to me in any form that is not kind and polite, in fear of actions I in actuality cannot do. And that is why I was demoted.
I was told there wasn't any specific incidents, or logs, or investigation. I was crying; I felt degraded being treated as I was in that conversation. I was furious; I can't fix a problem I wasn't aware of- But that lack of awareness is another one of my many shortcomings. A shortcoming that lead me to the deserved outcome, it seems. I do not contend that.

[...]

I may not quite understand whats going on, but I wish to apologize regardless. Apologize for- if possible- everything. It is also one of my wants to make amends, again if possible.
...
It has been hard to write this and it hurts to write this. It doesn't help that I have never been good at any sort of writing. It hurts feeling that every kind greeting and presumed smile from the OOC chat is possibly someone who loathes and hates my person and what I have done, that I have unjustifiably created an environment in which speaking out- and action I endeavor to encourage- is silenced. It hurts to be told I have done that and hurts that I am so blind I cannot see it. It hurts to be downspoken to and treated inhumanely by my peers, and hurts to believe I deserve that treatment. It hurts to be confused and it hurts to be scared. From this is my hope to ensure it never happens again- not for my hurt, but for the hurt of others- hurt I have apparently inflicted, an action I despise having (even 'having apparently') done.

But I should take this away from myself and more on the problem and issues that have lead to this. It is as if I am stuck. If I could focus more on 'the problem' I would, but thus far there isn't any solid structure I can address or work off of, to my knowledge. I endeavor to do the best I can with what I have, yet I feel as if I cannot properly communicate these problems and issues, as if I don't have the information to compile and shape into a neatly worded paragraph. I'm trying to express all my knowledge as plainly and cleanly as I possibly can... And that starts with how I most privately experienced what happened. And that is why I spoke so far mostly of my own experience, not only to potentially shed the most light, but in hopes that my own integrity can be plainly and clearly seen.

...What happens now?
I intend to hold myself professionally in this community, in hopes to cut back on personal reactions. It is not my intent to lose on kindness, but gain in thoughtfulness.
I will do my best to move on from any hurt I have felt from this matter, as I cannot affect any other as truly as myself.
I hope to make amends as best I may.
I am being held to no longer make such mistakes in ignorance,
and I shall try to make things better. Make it right.

To the Community as a whole; I can only say I never held ill intent. I have love for this community, and I only wish to see it prosper. The crimes I must have done nonewithstanding, I can only hope it is known there has only really ever been good will.
To those I Wronged and Offended; I'm truely, honourably sorry- if I can still claim to honour in your eyes. I wish to make amends.
To the Fellow Staff Team; It really is my hope to be called out on actions unseemly or baseless. And it is my wish these words are kept in mind.
To my peers within the Management; I thank you for the opportunity to try to fix this mess. The faith that I might be able to means worlds to me.

This is my admittance of guilt, of responsibility- For I am truely guilty in my lack of sight, in not seeing those I have presumably so greatly offended and so baselessly wronged; for in these actions there was no malice and thus they were born of stupidity - and I am ultimately responsible for my own idiocy and naivety.
This is my asking for forgiveness- not for past actions, but for my current ignorance, and my current confusion on what I did and who I did not do right by- for I still do not understand whom was affected or what was done; although I must stress I do not discredit those who said I did something so horrible- it is my own aforementioned ignorance at fault. I can only hope for forgiveness and amends.

And this is my apology.
For despite not knowing and despite how it is apparently impossible to inform me;
I still hurt for whatever slight and cruelty I imparted. I hurt for those I wronged.

I'm sorry
So sorry.
Mich

... I really have nothing to say that would add to that.

except that I think we should, perhaps, read these words, and understand what they mean.
I feel the people who blindly defended Mich missed the point of this thread.
I... do not feel it would be an opportune moment to demote her, however.
the Return campaign has finished, yes, but the playerbase is still working off of the events in that campaign.
players are still summoning gods. some gods are yet corrupted.
there are two prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled: the Sun Prophecy, presumably speaking of Harateth's return,
and the Heart Prophecy, speaking of coming conflict between Vermella and Sallana.
for that matter, Vermella's status as a god has yet to be fully decided,
not to mention the plans that may or may not have been made to try and bring Lycanria back to Altera.

demoting Mich... might disrupt those plans. and if she feels she is capable of making amends while still holding this kind of guilt for her actions,
well. we could trust her, or we could not, I suppose.
I say we can trust her. feel free to disagree with this post if you think otherwise.

Edit: actually...
I apologize. one other thing.
the long post I made previously in this thread was mainly a confession of sorts to negative feelings I had experienced on this server. feelings of being pushed aside, like my character and my contributions did not matter.
in retrospect, my personal feelings happen to match the personal feelings that others have, apparently, complained about. I do not know what happened to change my standing on this server that now my contributions are recognized, but it seems the issue of having all players feel included and influential to this server is still a major problem.
Michcat endeavors to be more inclusive of all players, and I will try my hardest to do the same, and allow newer players a chance to make a meaningful contribution. I do not want my own success to be a roadblock preventing other players from enjoying themselves. I don't want anyone to feel the same feelings as those that caused me to leave this server.

 

[Scardrac]

.. Gaby. There is something else to notice now.

Look around. Many people have been forum demoted.

Await an explanation of that before continuing.

 

[Gaby]

.. Gaby. There is something else to notice now.

Look around. Many people have been forum demoted.

Await an explanation of that before continuing.

seems they have. I've said what I need to say, anyways.

 

[cherbert]

I have taken back control of the server and disbanded management. I will be willing to share my views with people on a one to one basis but I don't want to get drawn into public questioning, explaining or any other drama relating to my decision (unless its positive).

I want the server to become a true community run server rather than being lead by an overseeing management which I believe is core to many issues. You are either staff or you are not and if you are then you have the same rights and privilages as the rest of staff. However, you will have certain responsibility e.g lore etc...

So as to start from a clean slate I have demoted all staff in game so that I can begin to evaluate where I stand with everyone. If you are one of them and you wish to help me achieve my goals and play a part in taking this server forward then please contact me to be re-instated. If you are unhappy with my decision then I request you either leave by the nearest exit quietly or you keep your head down and go back to enjoying playing the game.

I feel I have made the right decision - any long drawn out negative replies will be deleted - so don't waste your time.

 

[Gaby]

in my humble opinion...

if you wish the server to be community-run, then shouldn't the community at large be part of the discussion on which staff members can remain as staff?

 

[cherbert]

in my humble opinion...

if you wish the server to be community-run, then shouldn't the community at large be part of the discussion on which staff members can remain as staff?

of course. If you want michcat to be staff then ask her. I have simply removed management.

 

[Baron]

in my humble opinion...

if you wish the server to be community-run, then shouldn't the community at large be part of the discussion on which staff members can remain as staff?

That feels a bit like a popularity contest. The staff who are more insistent on enforcing rules or the less popular among the community would be facing opposition despite doing what staff are supposed to do.

I'm down for transparency and all, but at one point we did promote people on a friend basis and the staff ballooned - I can't see it going any other way when the community as a whole is doing the promotions.

 

[Gaby]

of course. If you want michcat to be staff then ask her. I have simply removed management.

I'm not just thinking about Michcat and my own opinions here.
I'm thinking about how this isn't placing a democratic system of any sort so the server can decide where to go from here.
with all due respect, I'm sure you know what's right for your server, but it could cause problems with other people in the playerbase who might leap to conclusions and assume you're trying to simply enforce your own will. which is what I know you do not intend to do, but it could easily be misinterpreted that way,
and in practice, might end up like that, honestly.

and I'm also thinking about how none of the people who complained against Michcat have spoken up against her in this entire thread. I mean, the entire mod team still look like fools, and we still don't know what these complaints even are.
as Ced said, transparency is a big issue here. Mokwar wanted the staff to be more forthcoming with their reasons for doing things exactly like this. I didn't see any evidence in this entire thread that the situation truly necessitated a mass demotion.

I thought we were getting somewhere.

 

[Gaby]

That feels a bit like a popularity contest.

excellent point Baron.
it should be a fair debate, not a popularity contest.

I'm going to stay quiet now.