Som's Experiment

[Anithola]

You don't need a dislike button~
I've always seen it as: why rate a post anyway when you can type out a more depth response, such as Why you dislike it, opening the door to constructive criticism. Often the way improvements are made.

Yeah I agree, with the removal of the dislike button, people wont just leave a dislike without thinking through why they do it, instead they will have to argument for why they don't like it, and as you said, slip over into the constructive feedback category

 

[The Courier]

Will comment when I get home of my opinion of th' matter.

Edit: Well, I was, until a fellow below be had said basically what I was going to say. In a quick nutshell due to my lack of time:

I believe that removing Dislike is really making us seem as though we're children. As for people who are too overly sensitive of negative ratings I merely have this to say, "Grow up". As mean, rude, and offensive as that may be to some it's certainly what may be needed. This is the internet you're on a forum about RPing on a Minecraft server guys. Come one, a negative rating isn't going to kill you. You'll be fine.

Otherwise look below at Mryosi for my other opinions in a gist.

 

[Mryosi]

So the dislike is removed but.. I just want to get a rainbow..

My serious comment:
This is a mature role-playing server and no one ever fails to mention it, however I keep feeling as we are being treated as children who can't control themselves. The "dangerous objects" are hidden away and we are being put in a foam room so we couldn't hurt each other.
I'm not presuming to know or notice every uncivilized conversation or any unjustified negative ranting and perhaps it could be a very major problems and your solution is flawless, however it does not stop here. There are many aspects both in-game or in the forum in which the players aren't trusted with. Many little things that are being prevented from everyone for the risk of it being abused by some. Things like climbing, potions and poisons, heck- even magic. All of that being taken away or heavily restricted because of the actions of some (I'm not necessarily talking about the removal of magic or climbing, just the restrictions of it). I'm sure that people were indeed abusing it, but why is heavy restriction or removal is the default solution?

Removing the dislike button is just like to treat a symptom and not the disease. We can't control how people feel but the fact is that when I've something to say, I need to face the facts that someone will dislike what I have to say (As I'm sure that people would do with this comment). And if things do escalate the perpetrators might as well be punished.

 

[Sos]

So the dislike is removed but.. I just want to get a rainbow..

My serious comment:
This is a mature role-playing server and no one ever fails to mention it, however I keep feeling as we are being treated as children who can't control themselves. The "dangerous objects" are hidden away and we are being put in a foam room so we couldn't hurt each other.
I'm not presuming to know or notice every uncivilized conversation or any unjustified negative ranting and perhaps it could be a very major problems and your solution is flawless, however it does not stop here. There are many aspects both in-game or in the forum in which the players aren't trusted with. Many little things that are being prevented from everyone for the risk of it being abused by some. Things like climbing, potions and poisons, heck- even magic. All of that being taken away or heavily restricted because of the actions of some (I'm not necessarily talking about the removal of magic or climbing, just the restrictions of it). I'm sure that people were indeed abusing it, but why is heavy restriction or removal is the default solution?

Removing the dislike button is just like to treat a symptom and not the disease. We can't control how people feel but the fact is that when I've something to say, I need to face the facts that someone will dislike what I have to say (As I'm sure that people would do with this comment). And if things do escalate the perpetrators might as well be punished.

*conflicted between agree and love*

on a less than serious note... this is jarring... i hit disagree more times than i would care to admit..

 

[Sos]

So the dislike is removed but.. I just want to get a rainbow..

My serious comment:
This is a mature role-playing server and no one ever fails to mention it, however I keep feeling as we are being treated as children who can't control themselves. The "dangerous objects" are hidden away and we are being put in a foam room so we couldn't hurt each other.
I'm not presuming to know or notice every uncivilized conversation or any unjustified negative ranting and perhaps it could be a very major problems and your solution is flawless, however it does not stop here. There are many aspects both in-game or in the forum in which the players aren't trusted with. Many little things that are being prevented from everyone for the risk of it being abused by some. Things like climbing, potions and poisons, heck- even magic. All of that being taken away or heavily restricted because of the actions of some (I'm not necessarily talking about the removal of magic or climbing, just the restrictions of it). I'm sure that people were indeed abusing it, but why is heavy restriction or removal is the default solution?

Removing the dislike button is just like to treat a symptom and not the disease. We can't control how people feel but the fact is that when I've something to say, I need to face the facts that someone will dislike what I have to say (As I'm sure that people would do with this comment). And if things do escalate the perpetrators might as well be punished.

as much as i agree with som's sentiments... it feels like everything covered in bubble wrap and sanitized... look, i know that some forum on the internet are *looks to 4chan* you get the idea, i have been on some where you can get perma banned for swearing and 'negative attitudes'
i know of the intentions and that is for maturity... but when i get shouted at for saying Frak or feck (not f***, made that clear) it confuses me that this mature server locks down profanity in such a way, this is not a dig at the staff before blades are sharpened..
but i would say that a 'swearing' button may help if people are shouting as such... we are adults here (well, i'm a man-child... that counts right)

rerail; this is interesting experiment but i wouldn't like it to be permanent... for the reason i gave before.. butting head is a human reaction and we are, as everyone keep saying, human.... but hey they're just thoughts.

 

[Somnastra]

So the dislike is removed but.. I just want to get a rainbow..

My serious comment:
This is a mature role-playing server and no one ever fails to mention it, however I keep feeling as we are being treated as children who can't control themselves. The "dangerous objects" are hidden away and we are being put in a foam room so we couldn't hurt each other.
I'm not presuming to know or notice every uncivilized conversation or any unjustified negative ranting and perhaps it could be a very major problems and your solution is flawless, however it does not stop here. There are many aspects both in-game or in the forum in which the players aren't trusted with. Many little things that are being prevented from everyone for the risk of it being abused by some. Things like climbing, potions and poisons, heck- even magic. All of that being taken away or heavily restricted because of the actions of some (I'm not necessarily talking about the removal of magic or climbing, just the restrictions of it). I'm sure that people were indeed abusing it, but why is heavy restriction or removal is the default solution?

Removing the dislike button is just like to treat a symptom and not the disease. We can't control how people feel but the fact is that when I've something to say, I need to face the facts that someone will dislike what I have to say (As I'm sure that people would do with this comment). And if things do escalate the perpetrators might as well be punished.

Hmmm, interesting point you got there. I wish that the answer was to have unrestricted access to all of this stuff, but we hardly ever remove things without there having been some ... overuse. It is unfortunate that these methods have to encompass even those who were not at fault, but that's the best way I know how. I'm fairly certain that the alternatives would also result in complaints (some more justified, and quite a bit stronger than the ones here).

And I am firmly of the opinion that increased communication (of the right kind) increases understanding, and that is the mature response, here. Unfortunately, all attempts short of this to encourage people to discuss their reasons for ratings has met with minimal success.

Now, you use the word "mature" like it means we should be more hands off in moderating this community and implementing these policies that make you feel as if we're treating the server like children... and I quite frankly disagree. Every community has rules, and it is in part the fact that we advertise ourselves as a mature server that motivates me. I feel a responsibility to ensuring that this server looks like a mature community and not one composed of angry 12-year-olds. (Not saying we did before, just using some hyperbole.) And before anyone says something about how looks can be deceiving, it's difficult for an entire group of people to appear in a way that they are not. If we look like we can solve our disagreements on the forums amicably, and reports of misconduct do not rise, then I would say that we have actually found a way to communicate effectively and solve problems amicably.

as much as i agree with som's sentiments... it feels like everything covered in bubble wrap and sanitized... look, i know that some forum on the internet are *looks to 4chan* you get the idea, i have been on some where you can get perma banned for swearing and 'negative attitudes'
i know of the intentions and that is for maturity... but when i get shouted at for saying Frak or feck (not f***, made that clear) it confuses me that this mature server locks down profanity in such a way, this is not a dig at the staff before blades are sharpened..
but i would say that a 'swearing' button may help if people are shouting as such... we are adults here (well, i'm a man-child... that counts right)

rerail; this is interesting experiment but i would like it to be permanent... for the reason i gave before.. butting head is a human reaction and we are, as everyone keep saying, human.... but hey they're just thoughts.

Let me remind you, in the specific context of swearing, that not everyone (adult or otherwise) is comfortable with language like that.

Not to mention we still accept folks as young as 14~ (13 in some really extraordinary cases.)

 

[Mryosi]

Hmmm, interesting point you got there. I wish that the answer was to have unrestricted access to all of this stuff, but we hardly ever remove things without there having been some ... overuse. It is unfortunate that these methods have to encompass even those who were not at fault, but that's the best way I know how. I'm fairly certain that the alternatives would also result in complaints (some more justified, and quite a bit stronger than the ones here).

And I am firmly of the opinion that increased communication (of the right kind) increases understanding, and that is the mature response, here. Unfortunately, all attempts short of this to encourage people to discuss their reasons for ratings has met with minimal success.

Now, you use the word "mature" like it means we should be more hands off in moderating this community and implementing these policies that make you feel as if we're treating the server like children... and I quite frankly disagree. Every community has rules, and it is in part the fact that we advertise ourselves as a mature server that motivates me. I feel a responsibility to ensuring that this server looks like a mature community and not one composed of angry 12-year-olds. (Not saying we did before, just using some hyperbole.) And before anyone says something about how looks can be deceiving, it's difficult for an entire group of people to appear in a way that they are not. If we look like we can solve our disagreements on the forums amicably, and reports of misconduct do not rise, then I would say that we have actually found a way to communicate effectively and solve problems amicably.

I'm cretin that the staff did not just removed or restricted features, I'm well aware that people are"overusing" some elements and it creates hell of a mess. But you also said that complaints will arrive no matter what would happen, so the solution is to do the easiest thing and cut it off completely?

Did you ever stopped to consider that if a community can't handle some negative ratings maybe the fault is in the community rather than the rating?
Just like I said in the previous comment, you are taking away the sharp objects and everything around is in bubble wrap so we would not hit ourselves and each-other.

Too be honest, I don't care much about the dislike button. I doubt that I used it more than once. Same goes for the disagree button.
However, its not right having features removed just because its easier. Its easier to remove, cut and delete things rather than to face the real problem.

 

[Somnastra]

I didn't say easier, actually.

 

[Mryosi]

I didn't say easier, actually.

I never said you did, but it was implied.

EDIT:
I mean, it was implied in your own comment that this is the easiest way to go.

 

[Somnastra]

I never said you did, but it was implied.

EDIT:
I mean, it was implied in your own comment that this is the easiest way to go.

Would you mind quoting that for me? Can't find it.

 

[HogoShi_Kitsune]

I myself am curious about the results of this experiment. Both sides of this debate have been very well voiced in this thread from what I have read so far, and the pros and cons of keeping or removing the dislike/disagree buttons are very adequately described. I am also curious about the effect of the voting system that Som had mentioned, however I'm curious as to what other ideas you guys can come up with as far as voting systems (or non-voting systems) that focus on the unity of the community and a productive way of sharing views.

 

[Anithola]

I kind of think there is too much focus on rating other people's posts. In my opinion, when you post something, its supposed to be a channel for you to voice your opinion, or share an idea, not to see how many likes you can get. I think the positive ratings are nice, because they show people that others like and support your opinion, but the negative ratings, the "dislike" in particular, honestly bring nothing but conflict and sad Alterans.

 

[dUMMY]

90% of my posts are just jokes.

 

[Legion]

I had made the suggestion for an up/down system to be used specifically within the non-critical portions of the forums. The entirety of the off topic forum, client mods and texture packs, showcase your work, roleplaying profiles and stories would have an "upvote/downvote" system like you have on imgur or reddit. If you like it, upvote it and hit next, if you dont like it, downvote it and hit next. No comments necessary.
But the critical discussion forums would not work on this system, for obvious reasons. Announcements, general discussion, and suggestions/feedback for example would all work like they do now.

So what I would say would be my ideal set up: Remove dislike, keep like. Agree/disagree, both counting as neutral ratings, for the critical discussion threads. In these threads, ratings are meant to be a way to quickly and easily gauge community reaction to a particular post, without having to scan the entire rest of the thread first. They should be allowed to be used without commenting on your reasons (though you should be encouraged to add to the discussion if you have anything to say). They are there so that a person reading can get a sense of how many people agree with an idea. Without the ratings, this could only be done by reading the entirety of the thread and tallying the results. Much more annoying and time consuming, and less accurate.
For non critical discussion threads, and upvote/downvote, where upvote is a positive rating and downvote is a negative rating. (I know most of you probably wont go for it, but really what is even the point of neutral ratings? Why is "I am indifferent to this" worthy of its own rating and statistic?)This is essentially a way for us to filter out bad content, and things we dont think are funny. A downvote doesnt mean "I think you are a terrible person" it means "I dont like this" in the same way if someone offered you stinky cheese and you said "I dont like this." Why do you think the front page of reddit and imgur are so entertaining? Because all the bad stuff is downvoted and only the good stuff makes it.
It is important to note that a negative rating under this system wouldnt (or shouldnt, but who knows) be as negative as it was previously. Under this system everyone would know that negative ratings would pretty much just mean you arent all that funny. Whoopty stinkin doo.
And while I think (with very high confidence) that anyone who gets seriously upset about dislikes needs to learn how to be an adult, even these people would be able to avoid the "dreaded" negative ratings by simply not posting in the non-critical sections where downvoting is possible.

Of course wed keep our staff love (but get rid of player love because theyve already been diluted into meaninglessness. ) and the amazeballs and the rainbows because those give us a certain flair that I think would be fun to keep and dont get in the way of functionality.

 

[Lord_Sinclair]

(but get rid of player love because theyve already been diluted into meaninglessness. )

I just briefly want to say that I mostly agree with everything you said, Legion, except for the player love, though I certainly see why you hold the opinion you do on that matter.

Player Love can easily be called "diluted into meaninglessness", and in general, I agree. The difference, however, is that there is the "List" button that allows you to see who, specifically, has given you your ratings. This means that while Player Love is generally overused, it can still be significant when coming from certain people, such as those who rarely like/love/rate anything at all; this gives Player Loves from those people significant meaning in relation to their opinion on the matter.

In short, Player Love is generally meaningless nowadays, but it has not lost its meaning entirely. Furthermore, is there any real benefit resulting from disabling Player Love? At worst, Player Love ratings become equal to Likes. Also, who doesn't like more fun buttons to press?

 

[Sankera]

Also, who doesn't like more fun buttons to press?

Yeay more buttons

 

[7632]

While I do agree that certain ratings have been "diluted" of meaning due to vast and sometimes obnoxious overuse, I also must point out that one of the purposes of the ratings addon is to increase site traffic and activity. While that particular button may have lost its original meaning, it occurs to me that it is still serving a positive purpose and should not be removed.

 

[Somnastra]

I had made the suggestion for an up/down system to be used specifically within the non-critical portions of the forums. The entirety of the off topic forum, client mods and texture packs, showcase your work, roleplaying profiles and stories would have an "upvote/downvote" system like you have on imgur or reddit. If you like it, upvote it and hit next, if you dont like it, downvote it and hit next. No comments necessary.
But the critical discussion forums would not work on this system, for obvious reasons. Announcements, general discussion, and suggestions/feedback for example would all work like they do now.

So what I would say would be my ideal set up: Remove dislike, keep like. Agree/disagree, both counting as neutral ratings, for the critical discussion threads. In these threads, ratings are meant to be a way to quickly and easily gauge community reaction to a particular post, without having to scan the entire rest of the thread first. They should be allowed to be used without commenting on your reasons (though you should be encouraged to add to the discussion if you have anything to say). They are there so that a person reading can get a sense of how many people agree with an idea. Without the ratings, this could only be done by reading the entirety of the thread and tallying the results. Much more annoying and time consuming, and less accurate.
For non critical discussion threads, and upvote/downvote, where upvote is a positive rating and downvote is a negative rating. (I know most of you probably wont go for it, but really what is even the point of neutral ratings? Why is "I am indifferent to this" worthy of its own rating and statistic?)This is essentially a way for us to filter out bad content, and things we dont think are funny. A downvote doesnt mean "I think you are a terrible person" it means "I dont like this" in the same way if someone offered you stinky cheese and you said "I dont like this." Why do you think the front page of reddit and imgur are so entertaining? Because all the bad stuff is downvoted and only the good stuff makes it.
It is important to note that a negative rating under this system wouldnt (or shouldnt, but who knows) be as negative as it was previously. Under this system everyone would know that negative ratings would pretty much just mean you arent all that funny. Whoopty stinkin doo.
And while I think (with very high confidence) that anyone who gets seriously upset about dislikes needs to learn how to be an adult, even these people would be able to avoid the "dreaded" negative ratings by simply not posting in the non-critical sections where downvoting is possible.

Of course wed keep our staff love (but get rid of player love because theyve already been diluted into meaninglessness. ) and the amazeballs and the rainbows because those give us a certain flair that I think would be fun to keep and dont get in the way of functionality.

So the thing that just occurred to me about the upvote/downvote thing- for it to have the same impact that it does on imgur, reddit, etc. (which is to say a functional one, but a mitigated psychological one), we would have to fiddle with the functionality of the forums.

 

[dogbew]

I had made the suggestion for an up/down system to be used specifically within the non-critical portions of the forums. The entirety of the off topic forum, client mods and texture packs, showcase your work, roleplaying profiles and stories would have an "upvote/downvote" system like you have on imgur or reddit. If you like it, upvote it and hit next, if you dont like it, downvote it and hit next. No comments necessary.
But the critical discussion forums would not work on this system, for obvious reasons. Announcements, general discussion, and suggestions/feedback for example would all work like they do now.

So what I would say would be my ideal set up: Remove dislike, keep like. Agree/disagree, both counting as neutral ratings, for the critical discussion threads. In these threads, ratings are meant to be a way to quickly and easily gauge community reaction to a particular post, without having to scan the entire rest of the thread first. They should be allowed to be used without commenting on your reasons (though you should be encouraged to add to the discussion if you have anything to say). They are there so that a person reading can get a sense of how many people agree with an idea. Without the ratings, this could only be done by reading the entirety of the thread and tallying the results. Much more annoying and time consuming, and less accurate.
For non critical discussion threads, and upvote/downvote, where upvote is a positive rating and downvote is a negative rating. (I know most of you probably wont go for it, but really what is even the point of neutral ratings? Why is "I am indifferent to this" worthy of its own rating and statistic?)This is essentially a way for us to filter out bad content, and things we dont think are funny. A downvote doesnt mean "I think you are a terrible person" it means "I dont like this" in the same way if someone offered you stinky cheese and you said "I dont like this." Why do you think the front page of reddit and imgur are so entertaining? Because all the bad stuff is downvoted and only the good stuff makes it.
It is important to note that a negative rating under this system wouldnt (or shouldnt, but who knows) be as negative as it was previously. Under this system everyone would know that negative ratings would pretty much just mean you arent all that funny. Whoopty stinkin doo.
And while I think (with very high confidence) that anyone who gets seriously upset about dislikes needs to learn how to be an adult, even these people would be able to avoid the "dreaded" negative ratings by simply not posting in the non-critical sections where downvoting is possible.

Of course wed keep our staff love (but get rid of player love because theyve already been diluted into meaninglessness. ) and the amazeballs and the rainbows because those give us a certain flair that I think would be fun to keep and dont get in the way of functionality.

I do like this, however i think it would worsen the large amount of ratings we have on the forums now. I think of we removed all ratings except staff love and added an up/down system (converting all positive and negative ratings to up/dish respectively, as well as all extra staff love into just one staff love rating), it would solve all of the problems people have with ratings.
I think having different ratings for different sections will confuse the less intelligent (including myself) and newer players alike. However i do not know how easy this change would be to make, or if Xenforo allows it at all.

 

[Legion]

I just briefly want to say that I mostly agree with everything you said, Legion, except for the player love, though I certainly see why you hold the opinion you do on that matter.

Player Love can easily be called "diluted into meaninglessness", and in general, I agree. The difference, however, is that there is the "List" button that allows you to see who, specifically, has given you your ratings. This means that while Player Love is generally overused, it can still be significant when coming from certain people, such as those who rarely like/love/rate anything at all; this gives Player Loves from those people significant meaning in relation to their opinion on the matter.

In short, Player Love is generally meaningless nowadays, but it has not lost its meaning entirely. Furthermore, is there any real benefit resulting from disabling Player Love? At worst, Player Love ratings become equal to Likes. Also, who doesn't like more fun buttons to press?

This particular point isnt one im attached to. If the rest of my setup were used but with player love still in it, Id not be the least bit upset.

So the thing that just occurred to me about the upvote/downvote thing- for it to have the same impact that it does on imgur, reddit, etc. (which is to say a functional one, but a mitigated psychological one), we would have to fiddle with the functionality of the forums.

Assuming its possible, this would be the easiest way, yes, but not strictly necessary. We could just make an announcement and rule that upvote and downvote are only to be used in the following sections: X. Staff already have the ability to alter and delete ratings so moderating it wouldnt be too hard, it takes about 3 clicks and most of us do it now anyway XD. At first it might be annoying but eventually people will get the hang of it to the point that other players on the forums will keep the new ones in line by quoting the appropriate rule.