Some changes in the new world. [Please read]

[Menel]

Fine. Thought Experiment.
And just for added awesomeness, im going to use your prize of icecream as the example.

does not aknowledge



lets go bit by bid

You challenged me. You offered icecream as an incentive for me to try, being that, if I try and win, I receive ice cream.
Your use of it as an incentive is contingent on the fact that you believe it is a worthy enough incentive for me to attempt the challenge. (Hence, why no one says, "We will make a bet, and if you win, I will give you a bag of dog crap!" )
This means that you find ice cream to be worth something. (Worth approximately the effort of attempting your challenge.)
But to me, ice cream is worthless. I don't much like it, and never eat very much at a time. I would not consider it as a worthy incentive to put in the effort to complete the challenge. (I am doing this for other reasons. )

valid and true. it explains what rellative worth is, so no objection so far, but it neither prooves me wrong.

This is an illustration of the fact of relative worth. What is valuable to you may not be valuable to me.
This concept is all important in understanding merchanting: merchanting is categorically effective because both sides make money. Lets say I mine obsidian, for the sake of selling it. In order to mine lots of obsidian, I invest in a diamond efficiency 5, unbr 3 enchanted pickaxe, and get my mcmmo mining skill to 200. I can now mine obsidian more quickly and more efficiently than the average person. A merchant approaches me, offering to buy my obsidian in mass quantities, at whole sale.

Now, your job here is being a miner. if you mine for a lord he could pay you for each item you bring him, or he pays you for the time you spent on mining, regardless of what you bring back in the end. Your salary does not need to have to do with the actual or even the rellative worth of the items you produce/gather. ofcourse both affect each other,but for a company to grow there always needs to be a bit of difference between worth of the work and actuall money it makes in the end.

Now if you sell your goods yourself, it declasses you from being just a miner and you turn to be selfemploeyd. Those people always do many jobs, for example.....merchanting. only the merchant-part makes the money here, the minor just does the work.

"just" miners on the server don't get payed but contribute to their town, group, house for free in exchange for a small or great vote on how to use the money in the end. or they are completly excluded from money-decisions.

His intention is of course to sell off my supply in small packets to others at 200% price so that he makes substantial profits.

i spoke about that problem, kind of. if the server is just generating a small amount of money profits of 200% won't be much for long. where do the extra 100% of profit come from if not from the server? as the pool of money won't just double itself, one radiant will be worth more and more through time. (the amount of currency gets smaller making one currency-bit more valuable in comparison to the total worth of work and goods that are on the marked)
but that means people who just horde money get richer without doing anything and goods are worth less and less

According to you, should I agree to this trade, only the merchant would be making money.
But, for two reasons, you are wrong.
1. Relative worth. (As illustrated above) Because of my special diamond pick and my 200 level skill, obsidian is far less annoying to mine for me than it is for you. Thus, as I can get it easier, it is worth less to me than it is to you. Because it is worth less to me than it is to you, I can sell it to you for a price that is greater than its worth to me, but less than its worth to you, and thus we both make money from the trade.
2. As a merchant, you buy my obsidian in mass quantities. I can collect a lot more obsidian than the average person will ever need at one time. Selling it myself would be a long arduous process of finding markets and then haggling for prices. The merchant buys my supply in large quantities however, on the idea that he spend his time finding the market and make a little money for his trouble.
Essentially, selling my obsidian to a merchant is like hiring an employee to sell the obsidian I mine for me.

Now, where is my icecream?

1. that is just another explanation of rellative worth and how profit works. as you are merchanting (cause you get payed for your goods, not for your work) i already denyed that reason above.

2. naaah, you didn't take some things into account. with each piece of obsidian you throw on to the market, the price for one of it will drop possibly ending in a collapsing market for obsidian. now you can just try to sell diamonds instead and sell it to the merchant and indeed, in theory that time will fix the obsidian marked again so you can go on selling so where is your icecream now- no...wait...wrong. the chain won't just stop there. the merchant is no money making donkey, he needs it from somewhere to pay you. from those who need your obsidian, diamonds, iron and so on. so far so good, but do the people realy need as much of it as you try to sell to them? maybe there are certain goods who are nicer to buy, but the average guy cuts his trees himself instead of buying it for precious money. thats how it is in minecraft and thats what i was talking all along, minecraft economy. now then there are only a few fixed goods who realy make money selling and the customers are hard to please cause everything they could buy from a merchants need to be cheaper then they consider the work worth they would have if they do it yourself. in minecraft, everyone can do everything. maybe roleplay gives us limmits, but we don't go mining in roleplay.

that will constantly push the prizes for most things on the market under the ammount what they are worth (realy and most times rellatively too)

the marced collapses...again.









And last but not least

Experiment:
a test, trial, or tentative procedure; an act or operation for the purpose of discovering something unknown or of testing a principle, supposition, etc


i asked you to do an experiment, because i know that discussing this won't proove one of us wrong or right but because we would need to have actual numbers. 'hard' proove.
don't trust statistics you haven't manipulated yourself.

in the end your text is just an idea, you say so without proove that the people within realy act like you say they do and furthermore, i asked for an experiment involving a whole server, a mere miner and a mere merchant make a sad pair of serverpopulation

i refuse you the icecream








PS

The moral of the discussion is:

*drum roll*

Legion always wins.

it is hardly a discussion as long both just opeend their mouth once and who wins isn't decided by the first sentences

 

[Yoda]

Wrong there, there's an outside source of money which is voting. 1,000 radiants a day is enough to buy rather a lot. And, it's an outside source of money, so the hoarders can't possibly collect all the money on the server.

 

[Menel]

Wrong there, there's an outside source of money which is voting. 1,000 radiants a day is enough to buy rather a lot. And, it's an outside source of money, so the hoarders can't possibly collect all the money on the server.

but not everyone does vote each day, for many people still just one of the voting sides iw working, the otherone not making money. also many people can't vote every day. and some days they just forget to vote. and there are the dead money pools. regions for example. it costs you 50K just to start a region. at best you need 50 days to get that money from outside sources and after that is done. the money is away. yes okay, it is still present in owning land, but it does not move and thats what economy needs. moving money. also there are other things. nobility for example, or the usage of emeraldblocks in building, the founding of houses......

boulderpaul has 4 million radiants in his vaults. those are not moving too.




sure in the end it works cause the moneyflow from outside is constant, but with every person joining the server we have another 150 k possible dead pool (region, nobility, house/additional plots for the region)

it just is too slow to be fun or to have a functioning economy where everyone realy can buy the thinsg he needs for a fair price that is worth considering

 

[Spark]

Probably not valid. This will do the complete opposite to what is wanted and needed. Why would anyone refund their city if they receive only a fraction of what they originally spent on it, and what they will have to spend on a new one.

People who don't want their build in the new world but want it refunded?

 

[Yoda]

50 days to start a region?

You need 50k to get noble, then 50k for the region start itself.

I was under the impression that current NPCs bought diamond ore for quite a bit of money, as well as various other ores on top of that. If mined in the Hollows, one can collect these ores rather quickly.

If the prices have not all changed, and on a lucky day, I can get about 40k in one trip to the Hollows. So starting a region shouldn't take more than a week.

 

[Lord_Sinclair]

I was under the impression that current NPCs bought diamond ore for quite a bit of money, as well as various other ores on top of that. If mined in the Hollows, one can collect these ores rather quickly.

That's all a matter of luck, my friend.

I've found maybe 3 diamond ore in my past 6 trips to the Hollows, all trips having lasted 30min-1hr (short by most people's standards, but still, after 6 trips...)

My luck is all in coal and iron; I very rarely find diamonds, or even gold for that matter. I mine in the Hollows, so I know elevation isn't a factor; I just have awful luck.

As such, I cannot simply mine to make money unless I want to waste days upon days doing so. Ores are worth quite a lot, yes, but only if you can find them.

 

[rauyran]

Not sure how this thread fell into the economy permathread especially as by now everyone must realise that Minecraft can't support a market economy since there is no scarcity.

People who don't want their build in the new world but want it refunded?

I think Draco's point was that they would be better off getting it transferred somewhere for free, demolishing it and rebuilding. Otherwise they will lose a lot of money.

 

[rauyran]

That's all a matter of luck, my friend.

I've found maybe 3 diamond ore in my past 6 trips to the Hollows, all trips having lasted 30min-1hr (short by most people's standards, but still, after 6 trips...)

My luck is all in coal and iron; I very rarely find diamonds, or even gold for that matter. I mine in the Hollows, so I know elevation isn't a factor; I just have awful luck.

As such, I cannot simply mine to make money unless I want to waste days upon days doing so. Ores are worth quite a lot, yes, but only if you can find them.

I don't think so. The Hollows is stuffed full of diamonds. However there are some very very efficient miners on this server with a lot of time on their hands. If you are just exploring caves then you need to go out at least 4000 blocks from spawn to get to unmined areas because every cave closer than that has been stripped by now.

 

[Ephemarel]

50 days to start a region?

You need 50k to get noble, then 50k for the region start itself.

I was under the impression that current NPCs bought diamond ore for quite a bit of money, as well as various other ores on top of that. If mined in the Hollows, one can collect these ores rather quickly.

If the prices have not all changed, and on a lucky day, I can get about 40k in one trip to the Hollows. So starting a region shouldn't take more than a week.

I think he just meant from outside sources - i.e. voting.

 

[Yoda]

That's where your tactics fail!

The closer you are to the spawn point of the Hollows, the more people have walked there. Many people have done half-hour trips, so many people have been through that part of the Hollows, most likely.

The further away from the spawn point you travel, the less people have been there because players often times only take short trips. So, the less people that have been there, the more ore there is un-mined.

Basically, the further away you go from the spawn point, or moreso the further in opposition you go to other players, the more likely you are to find ore.

For example, I like to go upwards, because most people tend to wander downwards whilst mining.

Ninja'd by rau!

 

[Lord_Sinclair]

I don't mine caves; I mine in lines, all starting from at least 1.5 km from spawn.

I know with certainty that the areas I'm mining are untouched; I'm just ridiculously unlucky.

 

[SobekRa]

I second rauyran. All economical theories are based off the fact taht ressources are scarce and that they must be allocated the most effective way. In MC however, all ressources are renewable and infinitely available, depending only on the work one invests to gather them, so basical economical theories apply only to a limited extent here.
It means people will not just buy everything that is on the market. They will buy what they need most or in raw amounts, saving time to do something else. This means that the only viable scarce ressource here is time, and how everyone allocates depends on a factor which consists of a combination of personal preferences. Which, however, are not rational but rather random.

 

[Lord_Sinclair]

I think we've drifted very, very far from the original topic...

/rerail?

 

[bowduim400]

Can I atleast have a big Air- Ship ruin? Then just say my precious ships where overfilled when trying to Exodus and crashed?

Air ship crash site! *finds night vision goggles*

(Dayz Reference!, sorry /rerail)

 

[Spark]

I think Draco's point was that they would be better off getting it transferred somewhere for free, demolishing it and rebuilding. Otherwise they will lose a lot of money.

I know but some people might not want a region at all in the new world, so they would want moneys instead of leaving it all behind which is a bit of a waste I see your point though.

 

[Legion]

I did specifically say "Thought Experiment" menel
I do not need to perform an experiment to prove that a merchant and a supplier can both make money on a trade. In fact, simply the fact that there is relative worth does that for me, and then I even went the extra mile and gave an example.

I wont go into the play by play of why your points were wrong/irrelevant here, as Rau is right it is a bit pointless because there is no way to have a realistic economy in minecraft and also because that is not what this thread is for.

And also because I have this niggling feeling in the back of my mind that pyrocide might do it for me... XD

 

[hshotwell]

Back on topic

I call I get to steer the air ship that crashes into PS thus banning all airships!!!

 

[rauyran]

As part of the rerail, let's speculate on how we'll get to the EF/SW

Also, without an airship, Naelwyn is going to have a heck of a climb to Rota Magna

 

[hshotwell]

First, I'd love if it was just SW.

I think it would be cool if there was a town at the bottom of the NK (get there by boat/horsies) and on that border town there was a giant arch/wall thingy. You cross into the gate and come to the SW. Get some cartel border wars going on and stuff.

 

[Kvothe]

I do love the gate/wall part.