Magic Discussion & Questions

[Lady Alec]

So there was a discussion in the Confession thread that I asked to be moved here, as it didn't quite belong in the Confession thread. However I want to state again that I did so because the discussion has merit and deserves to be discussed in depth. The magic people have also offered to answer questions where they can.

Please be respectful and mature. I would like to have the discussion here that is open to everyone. Please keep in mind I'm not here to shut down your conversations, so let's stick to debating issues/asking questions not throwing salt. Keep to the issues, not the people please.

 

[NIAH]

Let discussion begin.

(I just really wanted to use that gif here. 10/10 discussion enhancing comment. I'm going away now.)

 

[Jstar]

Seriously though, several new magic systems have appeared since the original was removed several years ago and all they've managed to do thus far is keep magic within select friendship groups as a reward for befriending certain players and or being staff. Am I upset by this? Somewhat, though honestly at this point it'd be naive of me to expect anything different. Magic is not accessible to the vast majority of the player base, making the elitism behind it, unintentional though as it may be, highly noticeable. The magus system has a multitude of faults, tldr.

That's just my blunt and honest opinion. I accept the fact that I may be wrong and would love to be proven such.

 

[Tot]

I'm not opposed and I'm not for the current system . . . I do wish it was more accessible but with that comes possible abuses and PG. I feel these are the major points that would need to be touched on if anything.

 

[Immerael]

I'm going to say before I start that as a member of the magically chosen crew, my opinion is probably skewed and I will be counted bias. So take this with your grain of salt.

The magi teaching my character is played by Rygan. I'm unsure if you know anything of mine and Rygan's past but we historically haven't been on friendly terms. There has had to have been staff intervention in matters between us before, with me in particular spewing a lot of salty hate his way both on and off the forums. I wanted magic for as long as I have had Azure and when I heard Rygan was the Eviscist magi I was like "Whelp I'm never getting magic due to our OOC difficulties in the past." I was more surprised than anyone when I got chosen as an apprentice. Now we are getting along pretty well, amazing considering our past.

So it is completely possible to get chosen as an apprentice while not being in the OOC friend group.

Now as for the magic system itself. I am not a fan of the Magi system. I'd prefer a way to solo obtain and advance through magic in some sort of system that would still have to be heavily moderated by lore team/staff to prevent meta/power gaming. As I am completely sympathetic to the situation where ICly the bridge between your character and the magi has been completely burned through RP. Or even you and the Magi just don't don't get along that well OOC, if you aren't comfortable RPing with the respective Magi you're pretty much screwed in this system until another teacher shows up. Which has a high likelihood of either having RP blocks or the same OOC blocks due to the nature of the Magi system. Since most of their students will either be or become friends with their teachers usually both IC and OOC.

I'd also prefer magic to be far wider available to the masses, though at varying levels. Low level magic I would like to be available to lots of folks and the more powerful magic, be rarer like we have now. No idea how to manage that as I haven't really thought about it yet. More just a what I would like scenario.

 

[blargtheawesome]

I wrote a big formist/formistry/healing magic proposal back in September along side Ced.

I don't know what to really do about it anymore, it's kinda depressing. I'd post it but Imms already doing that with his and I don't wanna seem like a copy thingy.

I'd like to respond to this first: We made an error. Instead of clarifying that we didn't have the organization we do now, or the guidance of Cherry in what we could do regarding it, or really any kind of mission statement at the time. We, while it wasn't so much a unanimous decision as a unanimous lack of initiative, didn't say anything. I would like to apologize that this is the case, and while we didn't say anything, we did read it. I anticipate we'll eventually, while some other priorities are somewhat higher on the list (events and lore for them) manage a proper review of what you wrote.

 

[blargtheawesome]

Seriously though, several new magic systems have appeared since the original was removed several years ago and all they've managed to do thus far is keep magic within select friendship groups as a reward for befriending certain players and or being staff. Am I upset by this? Somewhat, though honestly at this point it'd be naive of me to expect anything different. Magic is not accessible to the vast majority of the player base, making the elitism behind it, unintentional though as it may be, highly noticeable. The magus system has a multitude of faults, tldr.

That's just my blunt and honest opinion. I accept the fact that I may be wrong and would love to be proven such.

I'm not opposed and I'm not for the current system . . . I do wish it was more accessible but with that comes possible abuses and PG. I feel these are the major points that would need to be touched on if anything.

I'm going to say before I start that as a member of the magically chosen crew, my opinion is probably skewed and I will be counted bias. So take this with your grain of salt.

The magi teaching my character is played by Rygan. I'm unsure if you know anything of mine and Rygan's past but we historically haven't been on friendly terms. There has had to have been staff intervention in matters between us before, with me in particular spewing a lot of salty hate his way both on and off the forums. I wanted magic for as long as I have had Azure and when I heard Rygan was the Eviscist magi I was like "Whelp I'm never getting magic due to our OOC difficulties in the past." I was more surprised than anyone when I got chosen as an apprentice. Now we are getting along pretty well, amazing considering our past.

So it is completely possible to get chosen as an apprentice while not being in the OOC friend group.

Now as for the magic system itself. I am not a fan of the Magi system. I'd prefer a way to solo obtain and advance through magic in some sort of system that would still have to be heavily moderated by lore team/staff to prevent meta/power gaming. As I am completely sympathetic to the situation where ICly the bridge between your character and the magi has been completely burned through RP. Or even you and the Magi just don't don't get along that well OOC, if you aren't comfortable RPing with the respective Magi you're pretty much screwed in this system until another teacher shows up. Which has a high likelihood of either having RP blocks or the same OOC blocks due to the nature of the Magi system. Since most of their students will either be or become friends with their teachers usually both IC and OOC.

I'd also prefer magic to be far wider available to the masses, though at varying levels. Low level magic I would like to be available to lots of folks and the more powerful magic, be rarer like we have now. No idea how to manage that as I haven't really thought about it yet. More just a what I would like scenario.

The magus system is flawed. Frankly, anything we could do is flawed. I don't quite recall what led us to the decision of returning to the magus system, I believe it had something to do with having very few writers at the time. The idea, on paper, is sound: Have someone write up a magic system, and then have that person teach it, as their preferred character, to other people. Are there flaws in that system? Yes. Could it be abused? Yes. Could it lend toward elitism, bias, etc? Yes, certainly, and while I haven't noticed that, I don't discount the experiences of people who have.

Now, would any other concievable system have these problems, excepting that which magic is available to everyone on the server, and so it is more of a chocie to not have magic than it is to pursue it? Yes. And regarding the latter option, of having unrestricted access to magic, that is simply something no one wants. At least, not the vast majority of people on the server want. That's a matter of vision, and that vision conflicts with the vision of the overall server (at least, as far as I can gather). The magus system is flawed, certainly, but the magus system is what we have, and in my personal view - you may of course disagree with me, the point of this thread is to have rational discourse - that while perhaps we should of come up with a new system, I believe that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't, in this case. Better to attempt this system knowing the flaws of the old one, than to make an entirely new one that may end up failing like the original.

That is, of course, just my two cents. That's my opinion, not that of every magus, or everyone person who's written the lore ever.

 

[Immerael]

Oh I guess I should clarify, in my distaste for the Magi system I didn't mean to imply we should trash it all and start over. At this point we've dedicated so many different peoples time and energy it would be a disservice to everyone. Even those not in the system yet because the time is still wasted and no one benefits in that case.

I guess I meant in the future if we do a different system would be worth developing to eventually replace the current one, while we use the current one until then. Once it is fully functioning and ready to work.

 

[blargtheawesome]

Oh I guess I should clarify, in my distaste for the Magi system I didn't mean to imply we should trash it all and start over. At this point we've dedicated so many different peoples time and energy it would be a disservice to everyone. Even those not in the system yet because the time is still wasted and no one benefits in that case.

I guess I meant in the future if we do a different system would be worth developing to eventually replace the current one, while we use the current one until then. Once it is fully functioning and ready to work.

Sorry about that, guess my argument kind of was a straw man. I didn't mean to imply that you three were arguing for removal of the magus system and implimenting a new one, despite me responding to your arugments as if that were, in fact, your intention.

 

[Archbishop]

I dislike magic on a more personal level, for three reasons:

The first is more well known. Magic is, at its very core, and unless highly regulated, - Deus ex Machina of the highest order. It allows for plot devices that would otherwise be able to be solved through mundane and traditional means to be subverted because of it. I often give the example of the princess in the castle. Under normal circumstances, to rescue the princess, you have to be able to get over the castle wall, subvert or kill any guardians and climb the tower and get her back. In reality, this could be done through subtly and guile by tricking the holder, or through stealth and a good rope, or by raising an army and sieging the castle. But with magic, those traditional limitations are gone. You could claim to fly over the walls, teleport into the princess' chamber, report the princess to you, destroy the walls with your mind, glide through the walls with a ghostlike spell, or anything plethora of options available to you and your imagination.
Now, I know that that is a gross simplication of magic, and that most magic systems have limitations built on them. But this leads me to my second point: stratification.

What I mean by stratification is essentially known by its more colloquial name: special snowflake. Magic users have and wield a place of prestige and power over other players. Whether the power difference is real or merely perceived is a matter of speculation, but the fact is, it creates a gap between groups of people. Now, you may ask, this happens in other ways, why does it matter to magic? The answer is simple, because it's done in a way that magic is the divider, whereas with other forms of stratification, the dividers are a result of actions rather than being. For example, nobility is earned through either wealth or prestige, and so the division happens through action. Magic is special in that it's very existence generates the gap.

My third point is more lore related. Many people that generate the lore (not just here), are also those same magic users. It creates a situation where those limitations I mentioned in my first point are rendered useless. A classic example is as follows:
P1: "I'm going to walk through this wall!"
P2: "You can't do that, that's PG!"
P1: "Yes I can, it's in the lore!"
P2: "But you wrote the lore..."

Again, it doesn't have to be so obtuse as this, but many people can get away with any magical mcguffin, so long as it is written in lore by themselves or their friends.

Regardless, I've known for a long time that I'm holding an unpopular opinion, but I've only ever liked magic for the gods and for some enemies that are in events.

 

[parto]

So, I didn't even know magic was a thing until all that junk in the confessions thread.

 

[Colonelgames]

I'd also prefer magic to be far wider available to the masses, though at varying levels. Low level magic I would like to be available to lots of folks and the more powerful magic, be rarer like we have now. No idea how to manage that as I haven't really thought about it yet. More just a what I would like scenario.

I feel like in the future, it's very possible to make magic more available to the masses. My solution would be to set out to learn magic, and when they are skilled enough to teach others they open a public school and take in students. Lots of work but if you truly wish it to be more common then you have to put some hard work into it.

 

[Snerus]

I dislike magic on a more personal level, for three reasons:

The first is more well known. Magic is, at its very core, and unless highly regulated, - Deus ex Machina of the highest order. It allows for plot devices that would otherwise be able to be solved through mundane and traditional means to be subverted because of it. I often give the example of the princess in the castle. Under normal circumstances, to rescue the princess, you have to be able to get over the castle wall, subvert or kill any guardians and climb the tower and get her back. In reality, this could be done through subtly and guile by tricking the holder, or through stealth and a good rope, or by raising an army and sieging the castle. But with magic, those traditional limitations are gone. You could claim to fly over the walls, teleport into the princess' chamber, report the princess to you, destroy the walls with your mind, glide through the walls with a ghostlike spell, or anything plethora of options available to you and your imagination.
Now, I know that that is a gross simplication of magic, and that most magic systems have limitations built on them. But this leads me to my second point: stratification.

What I mean by stratification is essentially known by its more colloquial name: special snowflake. Magic users have and wield a place of prestige and power over other players. Whether the power difference is real or merely perceived is a matter of speculation, but the fact is, it creates a gap between groups of people. Now, you may ask, this happens in other ways, why does it matter to magic? The answer is simple, because it's done in a way that magic is the divider, whereas with other forms of stratification, the dividers are a result of actions rather than being. For example, nobility is earned through either wealth or prestige, and so the division happens through action. Magic is special in that it's very existence generates the gap.

My third point is more lore related. Many people that generate the lore (not just here), are also those same magic users. It creates a situation where those limitations I mentioned in my first point are rendered useless. A classic example is as follows:
P1: "I'm going to walk through this wall!"
P2: "You can't do that, that's PG!"
P1: "Yes I can, it's in the lore!"
P2: "But you wrote the lore..."

Again, it doesn't have to be so obtuse as this, but many people can get away with any magical mcguffin, so long as it is written in lore by themselves or their friends.

Regardless, I've known for a long time that I'm holding an unpopular opinion, but I've only ever liked magic for the gods and for some enemies that are in events.

Am I necroing a thread by posting this? Can you necro a week old thread? I dunno. I feel like the point should be discussed nonetheless.

I'd like to tackle your points one by one, from my own opinion. But before that I'd like to preface my statement by saying it is not a direct opposition to the sentiment that you hold, Archbishop, but rather your specific arguments against the magic system.

I'd like to start first off, by saying that - as of current, I am very well acquainted with everyone who is sparked and inducted into Hollowworld's magic system. From cogimancy and animancy to my own branch of eviscism I can tell you that I have developed friendly relationships with everyone in those circles (by pure coincidence) and that I have complete faith in them to not abuse the magic system or to make it seem like it is unfair to non-magic users.

In my own opinion, magic is a plot point. Not only for those who possess and utilize it, but for those whose characters are affected by it. Yes, someone may very well bypass your fortress and save the princess through some proxy afforded to them by the magic system, but for the people currently enrolled in that system, it is my own opinion that they'd only do that if it was fair to everyone affected by their magic. From the kidnapper to the kidnap-ee to the rescuer, I'm possessed of the opinion that magic would only enrich the roleplay experience of such an event because those who possess such powers are responsible enough and talented enough to ensure that their otherworldly antics are enjoyable to all parties involved.

I can assure you that nobody in the magic system feels as if their character is more unique or special when opposed to any other character who does not have magic. Yes, they have extra talents they may utilize, and yes, those talents can make the users tremendously powerful, but in my personal opinion, my own character, as well as all the other characters in the magic schools are as unique and as special as they were before their introduction to magic. While some may seem come more into their own because of their newfound powers, in my personal opinion, it is because of the nature of their personality, as opposed to the nature of their magic.

Lastly, I have complete and utter confidence in everyone who contributed to the magic lore for all the schools. Lannis, Rygan, Mitch, blargtheawesome, I feel these are some of the most upstanding members of the HW community. Or - in Rygan's case, at lease some of the most outspoken. I am entirely sure that they will not exploit the magic system to their own gain, not only because I have faith in the quality of their character and judgement, but also because I have confidence in their reputation and stature on this server. I believe the lore writers for the magic system on this server ultimately wrote that lore for the benefit of the playerbase, and not themselves, and I can think of no better members of our outstanding community to write the magic lore.

I'm actually really drunk right now, but these are my opinions as they stand. Please upvote me because I need to maintain my 3 upvotes to 1 post ratio, which I am currently losing. Thanks.

 

[Archbishop]

Am I necroing a thread by posting this? Can you necro a week old thread? I dunno. I feel like the point should be discussed nonetheless.

I'd like to tackle your points one by one, from my own opinion. But before that I'd like to preface my statement by saying it is not a direct opposition to the sentiment that you hold, Archbishop, but rather your specific arguments against the magic system.

I'd like to start first off, by saying that - as of current, I am very well acquainted with everyone who is sparked and inducted into Hollowworld's magic system. From cogimancy and animancy to my own branch of eviscism I can tell you that I have developed friendly relationships with everyone in those circles (by pure coincidence) and that I have complete faith in them to not abuse the magic system or to make it seem like it is unfair to non-magic users.

In my own opinion, magic is a plot point. Not only for those who possess and utilize it, but for those whose characters are affected by it. Yes, someone may very well bypass your fortress and save the princess through some proxy afforded to them by the magic system, but for the people currently enrolled in that system, it is my own opinion that they'd only do that if it was fair to everyone affected by their magic. From the kidnapper to the kidnap-ee to the rescuer, I'm possessed of the opinion that magic would only enrich the roleplay experience of such an event because those who possess such powers are responsible enough and talented enough to ensure that their otherworldly antics are enjoyable to all parties involved.

I can assure you that nobody in the magic system feels as if their character is more unique or special when opposed to any other character who does not have magic. Yes, they have extra talents they may utilize, and yes, those talents can make the users tremendously powerful, but in my personal opinion, my own character, as well as all the other characters in the magic schools are as unique and as special as they were before their introduction to magic. While some may seem come more into their own because of their newfound powers, in my personal opinion, it is because of the nature of their personality, as opposed to the nature of their magic.

Lastly, I have complete and utter confidence in everyone who contributed to the magic lore for all the schools. Lannis, Rygan, Mitch, blargtheawesome, I feel these are some of the most upstanding members of the HW community. Or - in Rygan's case, at lease some of the most outspoken. I am entirely sure that they will not exploit the magic system to their own gain, not only because I have faith in the quality of their character and judgement, but also because I have confidence in their reputation and stature on this server. I believe the lore writers for the magic system on this server ultimately wrote that lore for the benefit of the playerbase, and not themselves, and I can think of no better members of our outstanding community to write the magic lore.

I'm actually really drunk right now, but these are my opinions as they stand. Please upvote me because I need to maintain my 3 upvotes to 1 post ratio, which I am currently losing. Thanks.

Impressive post for someone well in their cups. A week is not a necro, rather it is a time for the panning of consolidation and thought.

I'm well aware that people disagree with me and I don't hold it against them, it is their sentiment and their opinion, and they are entitled to that. But your post still does not assuage my concerns, I know all the folks involved in the lore-making process, and I like and respect and trust them, but my fears and distrust of magic would not be eliminated until such a time that I am sure that the magic is not OP and does not allow the lateral freedom to PG with abandon. I'm still also of the opinion that magic creates a divide between users.

Most of my distaste of magic, though, the is a matter of flavor rather than skill. It encourages a fanciful, loosy-goosey' world building experience that I find harder to become engrained and engaged in.

Regardless, interesting talk, but as I said, I'm merely a rock in the stream.

 

[Electric]

I'd like to keep magic. Maybe improve it, but not do away with it fully.

 

[Auriel]

why exactly is it present now

as in, I could be a complete idiot and not realize that magic arose because of the recent campaign (the killing of that poor mage-guy, who possibly in turn granted a odd selective few of people to be new magus)

which brings me to a new point

its weird selective system beyond the fact that it was based on a trial-like-ideal, which was funny, because, yknow, magical lightning strikes that make mages makes complete sense

 

[Heie]

since this is a thread for asking questions, i thought i'd give it a go! Does the the school you start out with affect the way you learn other schools of magic? It seems that it affected your knacks, so i was a tad curious.

 

[blargtheawesome]

since this is a thread for asking questions, i thought i'd give it a go! Does the the school you start out with affect the way you learn other schools of magic? It seems that it affected your knacks, so i was a tad curious.

The main difference would be that the mage is already skilled in one discipline, presumably. Using university as an example, it would be like getting a degree in two different kinds of engineering that dealt with the same principles. However, if you're unskilled in the two disciplines, it would be akin to, well, trying to get two degrees simultaneously. It's doable, but it's hard, and it's easier to take it slow.

 

[Deleted member 12912]

Magic lore is fine, system of teaching is immensely flawed.

 

[Bakaling]

I feel rules should be set in place to reign back the magic system. Because as it stands if I get creative I can effectively snub any threat with each of the disciplines (especially the healing one, enjoy a finger growing back in your heart.)

There should be a system of checks in place. Like taking a will check against cognimancy. This could lend to more professions popping up. Like enchantress and scribes. Making armour that counters magic by offering a boost to saves. Other boosts granted for things that go against a characters core. From simple things like most people will not kill themselves at a mere thought.

Ultimately however my main issue is with cognimancy as it takes control away from the player. When I can get into a fight. Then suddenly be told. Your character has fallen madly in love with mine. Enjoy your concubineship. Which sends extremely creepy vibes up my spine and latches to my neck.

This has turned into a bit of a rant but also the lore seems a bit lifted from magic the gathering. Intentional or not.

"The spark is triggered by a powerful, emotionally-affecting, perspective-altering life event, often a near death experience in which it triggers to protect the individual. Making them a planeswalker"

Feel free to argue against me. My main issue is the sheer potential of this.