Too many heroes (and more)

[HappyShackles]

Then you lost to them. If you have been around on the server for a while you will have better stuff than the newbies and you won't lose very often, and if you do lose you deserve it. Its stupid to assign to experienced roleplayers an arbitrary shield of protection versus newbies. The only time you have problems of an experienced person losing to a neonate when they should not is when you have a text based rp and that neonate godmodes. That problem does not exist if you use minecraft pvp. Also note that I said mages might have a hard time using minecraft pvp because magic spells are not a part of minecraft. If you ask me, it should have stayed that way, exceptions permitted for non combat magic and things simulatable in minecraft, but that is an unpopular opinion and I am not arguing for that here. Mage combat, I will admit, is better in "Free-form"

"If you do lose you deserve it." No, you don't. Because roleplay isn't about what you 'deserve,' it's about the story. The goal is not to win, it is to build a cohesive tale of the interactions between your characters. Hate, love, memory, loss, sorrow, blood, sweat and tears. Not diamonds and enchantments. I do not care for my character to lose. Though of course this discussion does not pertain to the Southern Wilds, where I am told (by members of the staff) most of what happens is Out of Character and thusly not effected by the law of realism and roleplay.

The only way to lose in roleplay is upset yourself over how the roleplay is going.

If the people around you know to roleplay in a way that makes it fun for everyone, this should not be a problem.

1: People are not equal in combat ability. People like Legion are very skillful, and will beat most other people given equal equipment, and others like Deadpress are noteworthy for the degree to which their equipment outclasses the average Alteran's. There is a hierarchy in this system, and it is a fair one, not based on who ascended their character the closest to godhood and who did so "legitimately."

This 'hierarchy' is based on how long people have been on the server. If I may ask respectfully; what if someone has been on the server for a year but plays a farmer and so has more resources, but kills a slightly newer player with less resources who has made their way to archmage or something of that sort? It makes no sense for a farmer to kill an archmage, no matter how you slice it. What your character is should effect your character, regardless of how many resources you have gathered. If my character lost both his arms, should he be able to wear heavy diamond armor and slaughter

2: You are saying disagreement on how to roleplay is bad. (Therefore I should yeild.)
NO U

I have no response to this.

Invest in swiftness potions.

Other people can invest in them, even if their character is not agile.

See above.

I repeat; people wearing diamond armor can run just as fast as people without diamond armor (disregarding food.) Thusly, until someone can prove this a fallacy, my point regarding minecraft mechanics not being fully accurate to circumstantial roleplay realism stands, no?

Thanks for reading

 

[MRPolo13]

Also please note that I have been on the server for quite a bloody while. However, does that mean I run around in fully enchanted full set of diamond armour and well enchanted diamond sword? No, because I don't need it. Sure, Polo is a Lord, but what he uses is far more then enough, and that is usually just full set of iron and an iron or diamond sword, not enchanted either. You have to understand that just because someone's been there longer, doesn't mean they have, or want to have, better equipment. (For instance, I'm sure you have better armour and tools then me, though I've been here far longer.)

 

[Hilter]

"If you do lose you deserve it." No, you don't. Because roleplay isn't about what you 'deserve,' it's about the story. The goal is not to win, it is to build a cohesive tale of the interactions between your characters. Hate, love, memory, loss, sorrow, blood, sweat and tears. Not diamonds and enchantments. I do not care for my character to lose. Though of course this discussion does not pertain to the Southern Wilds, where I am told (by members of the staff) most of what happens is Out of Character and thusly not effected by the law of realism and roleplay.

Yes its about the story, but if your story is you're super awesome at fights and you don't lose, you should have to back that up somehow. Also this in no way ends the story. I've had rp fights that used mc pvp but the winner would just wait for the loser to come back, return their items, and then continue roleplay as if they were just defeated and knocked prone and weaponless. The mechanics were used as a way to determine who bested who, when both player's thought they stood a chance.

The only way to lose in roleplay is upset yourself over how the roleplay is going.

If the people around you know to roleplay in a way that makes it fun for everyone, this should not be a problem.

Right. Sore losers are bad. If you get beaten in the fight, you got beaten, and the rp continues.

This 'hierarchy' is based on how long people have been on the server. If I may ask respectfully; what if someone has been on the server for a year but plays a farmer and so has more resources, but kills a slightly newer player with less resources who has made their way to archmage or something of that sort? It makes no sense for a farmer to kill an archmage, no matter how you slice it. What your character is should effect your character, regardless of how many resources you have gathered. If my character lost both his arms, should he be able to wear heavy diamond armor and slaughter

That farmer, if they were truly roleplaying as a farmer, would not be getting in rp fights weilding full enchanted diamond armor and an enchanted diamond sword

I have no response to this.

That's okay, didn't expect one.

Other people can invest in them, even if their character is not agile.

I repeat; people wearing diamond armor can run just as fast as people without diamond armor (disregarding food.) Thusly, until someone can prove this a fallacy, my point regarding minecraft mechanics not being fully accurate to circumstantial roleplay realism stands, no?

The other players, accepting their inadequacies in speed could handicap themselves for the sake of rp. They might walk instead of run, run instead of run+jump, or sneak instead of walk.

 

[MRPolo13]

All of that ^^^

If the story is super awesome at fights and never looses, it is OP. It's as simple as that. It is the other person's job to point such thing out, not fight with an unbeatable foe. Also, if your RP is just that, you must seriously reconsider your ego.
MC's fighting system is probably the worst one ever. It very highly depends on who gets the better sword and armour. How do you expect that to help in an RP. You say that you've seen RPs in which the items were given back and RP continued. That is fine. However it highly depends on items. Unless they both wield stone swords and no armour, the fight is unfair and happens too fast.

As for the farmer thing, there are farmers on HW that are richer than me. And I'm a lord. If I was to be very picky, their yearly payment shouldn't even be a percent of what I should earn. But who cares? Nobody, because you can't stop people from earning money unless you were to create a proper medieval setting, in which most peasants wouldn't see gold in their entire life! However, on HW, things seem different. That farmer DOES have the diamond armour that would in theory be able to buy him his village, surrounding villages and a castle nearby, and live off as a king for the rest of his life... very short life, because there'd be others wanting money....

And as for the thing with walking instead of running. Seriously, who'd bother walking instead of running. That would be very stupid. I seriously hope nobody PvPs like that.... because when there is a PvP, it is there to kill.

 

[pyrocide]

Leo, how are you still saying to recognize the game mechanics, but mages don't have to? your posts are contradicting themselves.

Also I never said only mages can use potions, please stop trying to claim I've made such fake statements.

Your argument that "this makes everyone a mage and some people just choose not to use it" doesn't make sense. Everyone could be a mage if they wanted. Its as simple as writing it down in your character's backstory. Congrats your a mage, or a thief, or a fighter, or whatever you choose within reason.

Once again, I'm not forcing anything on anyone. I'm simply giving a possible solution to what appears to be a big problem for many players on the server, which is everyone trying to win at combat and freeform giving no way to decide a victor that is recognized by both sides (because if they did these threads wouldn't exist). Please stop trying to claim things that aren't true.

Finally, No, Alchemists could obviously also use potions. There are probably others that could use potions to represent their abilities that I am not thinking of at the moment. And for you to imply an ad hominem attack to try and justify your position has turned this discussion sour. You managed to pull off a solid handful of logical fallacies in one post, including implying a level of stupidity when you yourself don't understand my position, mostly due to you creating claims out of thin air.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion. I have no interest in fighting children on the internet. I brought a possible solution to a problem, and one that I will be implementing in my roleplay. If you wish to avoid the constant headache of arbitrating an outcome in roleplaying combat, I invite you to use the game mechanics. Otherwise, have fun with your game, and good day to you.

 

[Hilter]

Actually polo if they both wear diamond armor, the fight would last a fair amount of time even with diamond swords. The fight is not by by nature unfair, nor is it by nature quick. Ask Blargtheawesome about the fight we had. We both brought full gear and it lasted a comically long time. It started in the market of Tauredal, made its way into a river, then back on land, then he chased me around trees... it was great fun.

As for the farmer thing, your arguments are confusing. You seem to be saying both of the following
1. Farmer's should not beat archmages in rp combat because they should lack what it takes to beat an archmage: skill and effective weaponry.
2. Farmers can reasonably acquire awesome arms and armor, and thus could beat an archmage in a pvp fight.

If someone roleplays as a farmer who also happens to have weapons, armor, and the knowhow to use them, then it is fair for him to equip these in rp pvp and kill the wizard with them.
If someone roleplays as a farmer who is really just a farmer, has little to no skill with arms and armor, or does not own any, then in rp pvp he should not equip these things, as they would not conform to his roleplay character.

Also pyrocide Leo did not attack you, he did not call you stupid, he insulted your arguement. Regardless of if he did or didn't use fallacies in his arguement, you have committed the Fallcy fallcy (argumentum ad logicam) by infering that because of his alleged use of fallacies, his entire arguement is false and/or not worth considering. I happen to agree with him, mages can not realisticly use potions in their rps because
1. Limited range of abilities
2. Severely limited actual throwing range
3. Prohibitive (for some people) expense goes in to creating them
4. It would make mages be identical to alchemists

 

[pyrocide]

excuse me for not being clear. There was implication that if I took a certain stance then I was stupid for doing so. That's implied ad hominem.

I didn't dismiss the claims. I understand that since there isn't a magic plugin, the opinion is that potions are too underpowered for people to use in pvp. His claims, as based in opinion as they are, are valid. I just won't continue discussion when the discussion turns away from civility. At this point, much like freeform combat tends to go, we have come to an impasse and there will be no resolution. I have withdrawn so as not to continue this exercise in futility.

 

[Spark]

What are you all moaning about. PVP cant work in RP, you cant kill someones character, RP the fight to make it RP, OOC fights arnt RP anyway.

 

[MRPolo13]

The problem with the farmer thing is that they DO have the armour and weapons, therefore they WOULD use it to win a fight. Can't remember what I posted above (tonnes of writing, not enough will to read back :/) but the thing about the archmage. Of course realistically the farmer wouldn't have the right skill and equipment to fight. But that's being RP, which normal fighting does not cover. A farmer wouldn't have a full diamond armour and diamond sword, but in MC they do. Therefore an Archmage could get killed by a bloody farmer since you don't know who on Earth is behind that screen and how much a day he spends on PvP.
And as for diamond fights. They do take long... Unless one person has armour and weapons enchanted to best of their ability and the other has normal diamond armour. Which happens.

 

[Hilter]

Polo, pvp of course doesn't cover for RP, its not going to nerf your armor and weapons down to realistic rp levels, thats in the hands of the roleplayer. If you are roleplaying with a farmer and you somehow get in a fight with him and he shiftclicks on some enchanted diamond armor and pulls out an enchanted diamond sword and kills you, I'd say thats a form of powergaming / OP. That's an example of a problem cause by a specific roleplayer, and it is not a systemic failure that will influence other scenarios.

Same logic for your second paragraph, if that character (not player) should have enchanted diamond armor and weapons and its opponent should only have normal diamond, then that first player should get an advantage precisely corresponding to the in-game advantage that such a difference confers, and it makes sense that the second player's character most likely is defeated. If it is unrealistic of that character to whip out that set or armor and sword, then its powergaming.

 

[Spark]

Sorry if it wasnt clear:

What are you all moaning about. PVP cant work in RP, you cant kill someones character, RP the fight to make it RP, OOC fights arnt RP anyway.

Doesnt that just solve it?

 

[Hilter]

Sorry if it wasnt clear:

Doesnt that just solve it?

Not really because you are of the opinion that pvp and rp are necessary separate things, and I am defending the idea that it is a valid way of roleplaying fights.

 

[Spark]

Not really because you are of the opinion that pvp and rp are necessary separate things, and I am defending the idea that it is a valid way of roleplaying fights.

Roleplaying fights must be done in RP, it cant be done in PvP because of countless reasons meantioned above.

Battles however, can be because people dont send weaklings to battle and they would also be given good gear

 

[Hilter]

Roleplaying fights must be done in RP, it cant be done in PvP because of countless reasons meantioned above.

Battles however, can be because people dont send weaklings to battle and they would also be given good gear

...battles are okay because people in them aren't weaklings and they have good gear?
So, what about rp pvp under the same conditions?

 

[Spark]

...battles are okay because people in them aren't weaklings and they have good gear?
So, what about rp pvp under the same conditions?

You cant have an RP PvP battle! It doesnt work

 

[Valonyx]

Well, yesterday's siege on fort cobblefist in the southern wilds was both PVP and a bit RP, some people had diamond armor, but not all, and most people were being their character.
(im excluding the guy shouting ''poop'' like a complete child because he lost...)

 

[MRPolo13]

Of course battles would take place through PvP. That is caused by the fact that you can't have an RP battle because you'd have to tell your actions to the opponents. imagine 20 people all talking to each other at same time "attacking". Therefore, battles have to be fought out in PvP. However, one on one fights should be taken into RP because they are better that way.
Also, during larger battles, OP armour and weapons stop being an issue because of the amount of people to balance it out. Someone with well enchanted diamond gear can easily be killed by 3 people using normal diamond swords and iron armours. However, it IS an issue during RP.

 

[unnamed]

Oh..... I.... seeeeeeeee...

 

[Valonyx]

Oh..... I.... seeeeeeeee...

And you will also burn.

 

[unnamed]

Burn......? Fire... don't kill... me....