How far is "Eastern"?

[MRPolo13]

Also as far as Mongols are concerned... If you need an argument for whether they should be allowed just look at the Ottoman Empire. They held lands all the way up to Hungary during 15th century, so their culture is just as valid for being European as English culture.

 

[Archbishop]

While I like using The furthest extent under Trajan as a reference, it does eliminate many Northern European influences, as well as Eastern European influences.

However, I tend to agree. We had Andalusian Spain under the Abbasids who reached Tours. We have the Huns reaching Western France before they 'lost' to the Romans and never recovered. We have the Ottoman's who reached into Hungary and Austria, controlling the Bulgarians, Greeks, and Albanians along the way. We also have strong Persian influences through Greeks and the ongoing wars between the Sassanids and the Byzantines. Mongols had to be stopped by a coalition of Central and Eastern Europeans and eventually became both the Il Khanate and the Golden Horde. The Avars are a result of Hunnic permanent settlement and represent the worship of Tengri in the Balkans.

Regardless, I think most of us are on the same page here. We don't want Central or East Asian influences so as to avoid anime tropes. While it's not up to me, I generally consider everything acceptable from the Berbers up north, to the Persians in the East. Mongol, Seljuk, Turkic, and Hunnic influences would be ok, so long as we avoid the Tang Dynasty under Kublai Khan.

Tl:dr I'm a lot more flexible, and I agree with you, but it's up to Faelin

 

[CyberChaosV2]

this thread is making me realize how little I know about history...

 

[Cukie1]

As far as I'm aware, we stick to Mediterannean and Europe as a whole. I believe this is coming up from the Arabic whitelist I recently had to tend to, and was instructed that Middle Eastern influence alone was not allowed. The closest they can achieve is Sooleran. Sooleran is still broad enough to add in your flair, as Magiik has added to having Persian, and I remember him going to staff to ask beforehand. There's also a people (albeit unlinked by the rest of the culture) that have been known to settle, meaning you can use an existing culture to branch into a new sub of the culture.

 

[Naelwyn]

If you want to establish a culture, the general rule that I've always kept is,

"If you write a lore writeup as good as Cherry's Norvagen or the Nakam, you're pretty much guaranteed to get it accepted for future use, but that is the quality bar."

Byzantium and Arabia are probably the limitations to what I consider far east, server-wise. If one is looking for horsemen, there are some options in Eastern Europe. Golden Horde/Mongolians is too far east for me.

I'd say go for it, but with the understanding that one can't just say "We'd like Lizardfolk" or, "We'd like Byzantine culture." - You've actually got to put in a very good chunk of time writing original material for it to be a player-selectable background culture.

 

[MRPolo13]

Byzantium and Arabia are probably the limitations to what I consider far east, server-wise. If one is looking for horsemen, there are some options in Eastern Europe. Golden Horde/Mongolians is too far east for me.

So wait... the Golden Horde is too far east? Do you know what the Empire of the Golden Horde looked like? Because... it's definitely not too far east.

I'd like to point out that apart of the empire spread into Moldavia.

How is this even a bloody debate? The fact of the matter is that Europe was affected by many cultures throughout the millennia of modern history. Thankfully we don't have to make a distinction of how far east is too far east. The uninhabited regions of Ural and Siberia do that for us, as does Sahara, as does the entrance to India. Europe is surrounded by lands that are not inhabited by anyone.

Also the argument isn't about a culture but about potential new players. Why is this so hard to grasp? If a new player wants to join the server they should be allowed to if inspired by Byzantine Empire.

 

[blargtheawesome]

i personally think of this area is roughly "europe as at least some dude somewhere who defined himself as european probably knew about in the 14th century," and if i'm making a new character i just make them whatever culture sounds fun that isn't asian

 

[Archbishop]

I suppose we could also get into the debate of 'what is Europe?' The impetus behind this is simple. Europe is a political construction, created for the distinction and separation of European whites against the rest of the world. Geographically, there is not such thing as Europe. The continent is Eurasia. The plate tectonics don't split at the Urals or anywhere is Europe or Asia except the Arabian plate and the Australian plate (which includes India). Most European languages aren't even wholly 'European'. They come from the proto-indo-European language group. The same language group as Persian and many Indian languages.

Regardless, as my History major tells me, no culture is isolated. All histories are interwoven.

 

[NIAH]

So wait... the Golden Horde is too far east? Do you know what the Empire of the Golden Horde looked like? Because... it's definitely not too far east.

I'd like to point out that apart of the empire spread into Moldavia.

How is this even a bloody debate? The fact of the matter is that Europe was affected by many cultures throughout the millennia of modern history. Thankfully we don't have to make a distinction of how far east is too far east. The uninhabited regions of Ural and Siberia do that for us, as does Sahara, as does the entrance to India. Europe is surrounded by lands that are not inhabited by anyone.

Also the argument isn't about a culture but about potential new players. Why is this so hard to grasp? If a new player wants to join the server they should be allowed to if inspired by Byzantine Empire.

They were in Europe due to invasion, yes. But invading Europe does not necessarily mean they are European. As well as Altera not having a mirrored time line to Earth all of the time. So even if eastern cultures invaded Europe once, it doesn't automatically equate to Alter having those eastern influences.

I'm just saying that if we open the door a tiny bit, it's going to be a headache for someone to have to sift through a subjective sea of influences.

No one has ever said Europe wasn't influenced by the East. I've just been saying that Earth History does not always equate to allowing the Eastern and Middle Eastearn into Altera. At least not without significant write-ups, submissions, and review like Naelwyn said, which can become quite a process.

 

[Jak]

No one has ever said Europe wasn't influenced by the East. I've just been saying that Earth History does not always equate to allowing the Eastern and Middle Eastearn into Altera. At least not without significant write-ups, submissions, and review like Naelwyn said, which can become quite a process.

The thing is we have a huge desert, that's basically Arabia. Why not just allow Arabic cultural influences?

 

[Cukie1]

The thing is we have a huge desert, that's basically Arabia. Why not just allow Arabic cultural influences?

Deserts don't always have to mean it's automatically Arabic

 

[MRPolo13]

No one has ever said Europe wasn't influenced by the East. I've just been saying that Earth History does not always equate to allowing the Eastern and Middle Eastearn into Altera. At least not without significant write-ups, submissions, and review like Naelwyn said, which can become quite a process.

But... Europeans have Europe by invasion. ._.

You think the spread of Christianity was a perfectly peaceful process? Hell, Christianity in itself is a Middle Eastern religion, as is Judaism. The argument that anyone came into Europe through invasion shouldn't be counted is completely invalid, as I can assure you that if it wasn't for invasion Europe would be a vastly different continent than it was in the Middle Ages. Also the Ottoman Empire held European lands for centuries, to the point where to claim that their hold over Europe is invalid is just the same as saying that Christianity's claim over Europe was invalid in 12th century because they only held the majority of Europe for ~200 years.

 

[blargtheawesome]

The thing is we have a huge desert, that's basically Arabia. Why not just allow Arabic cultural influences?

But... Europeans have Europe by invasion. ._.

You think the spread of Christianity was a perfectly peaceful process? Hell, Christianity in itself is a Middle Eastern religion, as is Judaism. The argument that anyone came into Europe through invasion shouldn't be counted is completely invalid, as I can assure you that if it wasn't for invasion Europe would be a vastly different continent than it was in the Middle Ages. Also the Ottoman Empire held European lands for centuries, to the point where to claim that their hold over Europe is invalid is just the same as saying that Christianity's claim over Europe was invalid in 12th century because they only held the majority of Europe for ~200 years.

she's not saying you can't have arabians or cultures who weren't brought to europe by invasion, she's saying you just have to make a cultural writeup for it

 

[Jak]

she's not saying you can't have arabians or cultures who weren't brought to europe by invasion, she's saying you just have to make a cultural writeup for it

Curious now, do we have to write up cultures if we want to call our character something Spanish and have him look Spanish or? I have no clue what the process is.

 

[Rygan]

An arabic styled faction would be 100% ok with me and has always been one of the things I'd do if Anhald didn't exist. For me personally things don't feel "too eastern" until we reach China and the surrounding area. Byzantium, the factions descended from the Mongolians, and Kievan Rus are all fair game. I'd even go as far as to say meeting a Roman Empire era faction - even though that's allowed by our parameters - would feel less immersive than a Golden Horde inspired one.

 

[Cukie1]

Curious now, do we have to write up cultures if we want to call our character something Spanish and have him look Spanish or? I have no clue what the process is.

Anything that introduces a culture/people/language has to have a Write-up, even if it's default European. Its done to settle a whole culture, rather than just an individual.

 

[MRPolo13]

she's not saying you can't have arabians or cultures who weren't brought to europe by invasion, she's saying you just have to make a cultural writeup for it

And my argument throughout is that if someone makes a whitelist application expressing an interest in making a character based on these cultures they should be allowed to without having to write anything, because new players shouldn't be forced to write a culture on the spot.

 

[blargtheawesome]

Curious now, do we have to write up cultures if we want to call our character something Spanish and have him look Spanish or? I have no clue what the process is.

nah. it's just if you want it to be sort of an "official" thing like the norvagen are an official culture someone write up that folk can get in on and have their own sections and track their own shit. if you want to be lowkey spanish no one is saying you can't be lowkey spanish

 

[blargtheawesome]

And my argument throughout is that if someone makes a whitelist application expressing an interest in making a character based on these cultures they should be allowed to without having to write anything, because new players shouldn't be forced to write a culture on the spot.

as far as i know, no one has ever been declined or straight up told "no" (without a "pls edit this") unless they're literally weaboos

 

[Naelwyn]

And my argument throughout is that if someone makes a whitelist application expressing an interest in making a character based on these cultures they should be allowed to without having to write anything, because new players shouldn't be forced to write a culture on the spot.

I'm going to use Mount & Blade as an example here, keeping in mind that I've only mostly played older builds.

You can arrive in Zendar as some kind of foreigner, no problem, but if you want to make some kind of official "On the map somewhere" culture, IE, Say, Swadia, you need to write it up.

With enough people doing writeups you then have several 'cultural' centres people can say their new character is from, vs kinda needing to make something up about their homeland from whole cloth.