A point on wearing plate armor

[Lannis]

Okay, this

is wrong. The sword blows bit is 100% correct, as swords would slide over the plates if hit too hard, giving a good defense. Crossbow bolts, however, tore through almost /any/ armor due to the strength with which the bolt was propelled and the best metal it would of been made of is thin-ish sheets of steel, which crossbow bolts would of torn /straight/ through. However, people don't seem to understand crossbows either. They are slow to load, with a maximum of 2 bolts being fired per minute, as they were /very/ stiff. They were easy to handle, meaning you didn't need much training to use them, but the sights were not the most accurate and they had about the same kick as a small handgun hitting you in the shoulder. It would also of taken time to get the crossbow aimed unless you had been trained and knew the correct methods to bring it up quickly and fire accurately. However, they do lose power at a range. They are basically the bow equivalent of a shotgun

It, eh, still sorta/kinda depends with crossbows vs. armor. For one, you'll see varying crossbow strengths, from lighter hunting crossbows to the heavy, windlass-and-two-minute-reload crossbows designed for warfare. More importantly, armor effectiveness varied dramatically across the middle ages as armor technology and metalworking techniques improved. As Gregor has sniped, quality armors were a very solid defense against bows and crossbows.

...Segue/Rant
"Quality armors"are just that- The best of the best, the 1% of medieval armory. Such are a massive pain to make, requiring advanced knowledge of metallurgy and craftsmanship in addition to top-notch resources and an absolute ton of funding. Armor capable of rendering projectiles mostly irrelevant would be, as Greg said, the equivalent of purchasing a tank in modern times. Yer average Joe is going to have a snowball's chance in hell of even getting his hands on a set, much less one that's properly fitted. The highest armor tiers are pretty much reserved for lords and their very-small cadre of elite knights, those that they like enough to spend a fortune on. Shameless plug here, but preferably, if y'want this stuff IC you should find a smith to do it who actually knows what they're doing OOC, as it bothers me to no end when smiths pull the, "*Clang clang, full plate popped out from this steel ingot 'cause I'm an expert*" card.
If you say you have full plate of the highest caliber from yer backstory, unbridled rage comes a'flowin', and I will find some excuse to take a trip to yer town and pummel you to back to an appropriate tech level. Don't do that.
Cheers~

 

[MRPolo13]

I'll give you some quotes.
"By the 13th century (1200s), fasions were changing and people began to wear rigid breast and back plates as well as leg protectors on top of their chain mail. The earliest plates were made of hardened leather but, by the 14th century, this was starting to be replaced by metal plates" Also, sorry. I meant to say late 15th (As this is when people had the showoffy armor you see) >.<. 16th was the death of armor due to the invention of guns.

17th was, and not because of firearms. Early firearms had nothing on plate armour. In fact, Polish Hussar armour was tested by firing a pistol from around five feet. If it penetrated, the armour wasn't good enough. Full plate armour died out because of expenses that went with it - someone who had full plate needed at least another person, often two to actually put it on. It's also the matter of logistics and the fact that for the price of full plate armour you could afford, say, five pikemen for half a year.

 

[Gregor]

17th was, and not because of firearms. Early firearms had nothing on plate armour. In fact, Polish Hussar armour was tested by firing a pistol from around five feet. If it penetrated, the armour wasn't good enough. Full plate armour died out because of expenses that went with it - someone who had full plate needed at least another person, often two to actually put it on. It's also the matter of logistics and the fact that for the price of full plate armour you could afford, say, five pikemen for half a year.

Same reason why people used muskets instead of longbows

Would you rather have 100 bowmen, or 1000 musketmen?
Or 10 heavily armored knights?

 

[Gregor]

It, eh, still sorta/kinda depends with crossbows vs. armor. For one, you'll see varying crossbow strengths, from lighter hunting crossbows to the heavy, windlass-and-two-minute-reload crossbows designed for warfare. More importantly, armor effectiveness varied dramatically across the middle ages as armor technology and metalworking techniques improved. As Gregor has sniped, quality armors were a very solid defense against bows and crossbows.

...Segue/Rant
"Quality armors"are just that- The best of the best, the 1% of medieval armory. Such are a massive pain to make, requiring advanced knowledge of metallurgy and craftsmanship in addition to top-notch resources and an absolute ton of funding. Armor capable of rendering projectiles mostly irrelevant would be, as Greg said, the equivalent of purchasing a tank in modern times. Yer average Joe is going to have a snowball's chance in hell of even getting his hands on a set, much less one that's properly fitted. The highest armor tiers are pretty much reserved for lords and their very-small cadre of elite knights, those that they like enough to spend a fortune on. Shameless plug here, but preferably, if y'want this stuff IC you should find a smith to do it who actually knows what they're doing OOC, as it bothers me to no end when smiths pull the, "*Clang clang, full plate popped out from this steel ingot 'cause I'm an expert*" card.
If you say you have full plate of the highest caliber from yer backstory, unbridled rage comes a'flowin', and I will find some excuse to take a trip to yer town and pummel you to back to an appropriate tech level. Don't do that.
Cheers~

I think this mostly happens because of the medieval "arms race" that goes on in this server.

People pull high powered crossbows from their back, and therefore people pull super plate from their fictional armory.
People like to cherry pick their information on medieval times to justify how their things pierce plate, or how their plate resists the projectile/weapon.

I think having a set "time period" would be good, as people could all equally base their weaponry/armor on that.

 

[MRPolo13]

I think this mostly happens because of the medieval "arms race" that goes on in this server.

People pull high powered crossbows from their back, and therefore people pull super plate from their fictional armory.
People like to cherry pick their information on medieval times to justify how their things pierce plate, or how their plate resists the projectile/weapon.

I think having a set "time period" would be good, as people could all equally base their weaponry/armor on that.

I'd vouch for late 14th century in my opinion. :3

 

[Angryboy]

I think having a set "time period" would be good, as people could all equally base their weaponry/armor on that.

Agreed, too many people take things from extremely late medieval eras. If our ships and cannons are anything to go by, we're most likely around 14th/15th century.

 

[MRPolo13]

Agreed, too many people take things from extremely late medieval eras. If our ships and cannons are anything to go by, we're most likely around 14th/15th century.

Ships are more like your 17th and 18th century ships of the line...

Either that or Viking longboats from 9th century xD

 

[Angryboy]

Ships are more like your 17th and 18th century ships of the line...
Either that or Viking longboats from 9th century xD

Look at the ships made by Aeyeras, they're more suitable for the timezone. The ships I have were designed way ahead of their time and the specific designs were chosen by Mastertyl because he wanted us to have the best fleet... the issue with these ships being that most others could run rings around them so long as they stay out of a full broadside. I've actually been debating whether to remove those ships or not; they're unsuitable for the server, but a lot of materials and time went into building them.

 

[MRPolo13]

Look at the ships made by Aeyeras, they're more suitable for the timezone. The ships I have were designed way ahead of their time and the specific designs were chosen by Mastertyl because he wanted us to have the best fleet... the issue with these ships being that most others could run rings around them so long as they stay out of a full broadside. I've actually been debating whether to remove those ships or not; they're unsuitable for the server, but a lot of materials and time went into building them.

Yeah, Aeyeras ships is what I mean :L

Most of their ships ARE more or less 16th-17th century.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I am loving this thread I admire the thought and effort going into hammering out the fine points of what is and is not realistic in wearing armour.*cheesy pun intended*

The one point I would like to emphasize is that wearing plate armour as well as effective swordsmanship take ALOT of effective training. For someone to reap the benefits of having amazing weapons and armour they would have to train for many years, under the instruction of a talented teacher with experience. The person with effective training would then also be far deadlier and safer with less elaborate and specialized/expensive equipment. In the time of such accoutrements there was VERY limited access to Google or YouTube (reserved to Digimancers ) so the likelihood of the average citizen having access to such specialized knowledge was highly unlikely.

Simply put, one does not simply don fantastic plate armour and heft a glorious battle sword to become a masterful fighter.

Thank you for the effort you put into this post Gregor. Please correct me if I am off base

 

[Mad Hatter]

I couldn't resist posting this

http://www.thegeekocracy.com/modern...rd-competition-world-invitational-tournament/

Enjoy

 

[Gregor]

I am loving this thread I admire the thought and effort going into hammering out the fine points of what is and is not realistic in wearing armour.*cheesy pun intended*

The one point I would like to emphasize is that wearing plate armour as well as effective swordsmanship take ALOT of effective training. For someone to reap the benefits of having amazing weapons and armour they would have to train for many years, under the instruction of a talented teacher with experience. The person with effective training would then also be far deadlier and safer with less elaborate and specialized/expensive equipment. In the time of such accoutrements there was VERY limited access to Google or YouTube (reserved to Digimancers ) so the likelihood of the average citizen having access to such specialized knowledge was highly unlikely.

Simply put, one does not simply don fantastic plate armour and heft a glorious battle sword to become a masterful fighter.

Thank you for the effort you put into this post Gregor. Please correct me if I am off base

I appreciate the kind words!

Would there be interest in long wall of texts about other parts of medieval weaponry/society?

If so, please tell me~

 

[MRPolo13]

I appreciate the kind words!

Would there be interest in long wall of texts about other parts of medieval weaponry/society?

If so, please tell me~

Always here to help too

 

[Mad Hatter]

I appreciate the kind words!

Would there be interest in long wall of texts about other parts of medieval weaponry/society?

If so, please tell me~

I would love to see a series of threads containing factual information about all the different aspects of medieval society/culture. Weapons and armour, communication and information distribution, societal norms and mannerisms, implementation of laws and follow through of sentencing, living conditions for the different classes of people, medical practices and abilities... The list of interesting and applicable topics goes on.

For example regarding communication, if a person were in a position where they were being hunted down, would there be any feasible way to send for assistance from allies? I heard the notion of pigeons being used but that seems wholly unlikely and logistically incredibly awkward. Or on the notion of people roaming about ruthlessly slaughtering their enemies with impunity and without repercussions for their actions. It's my vague understanding that there was a certain amount of "civilization" that would have inhibited people from behaving like that generally speaking. Though I am sure there was certainly a higher preponderance of vigilantism and banditry not to mention the abuses of the less well off by the more affluent members of society. That said, the fact that there was a social structure would indicate a certain level of civility amongst the people of a given region.

My, I do ramble just a tiny bit more...

What I would also love to see is examples and comparisons made of how the Earthen reality can best fit with Alteran reality to create a reference point for specific issues that arise during RP.

Short answer, give me more! Please

 

[Gregor]

I would love to see a series of threads containing factual information about all the different aspects of medieval society/culture. Weapons and armour, communication and information distribution, societal norms and mannerisms, implementation of laws and follow through of sentencing, living conditions for the different classes of people, medical practices and abilities... The list of interesting and applicable topics goes on.

For example regarding communication, if a person were in a position where they were being hunted down, would there be any feasible way to send for assistance from allies? I heard the notion of pigeons being used but that seems wholly unlikely and logistically incredibly awkward. Or on the notion of people roaming about ruthlessly slaughtering their enemies with impunity and without repercussions for their actions. It's my vague understanding that there was a certain amount of "civilization" that would have inhibited people from behaving like that generally speaking. Though I am sure there was certainly a higher preponderance of vigilantism and banditry not to mention the abuses of the less well off by the more affluent members of society. That said, the fact that there was a social structure would indicate a certain level of civility amongst the people of a given region.

My, I do ramble just a tiny bit more...

What I would also love to see is examples and comparisons made of how the Earthen reality can best fit with Alteran reality to create a reference point for specific issues that arise during RP.

Short answer, give me more! Please

There really wasnt much of a way to communicate in that sense.

Pretty much, the only way to quickly deliver a message was on horseback, or by boat.

People didnt go around killing people for fun

Mercenary companies would also often raid and pillage the surrounding countryside of Western Europe if not currently in someone's employ. Often, they sought to extract ransom from capturing nobles, fortifications, or towns. These same people used Chevauchée tactics to scour the countryside in and out of wartime.

Banditry often increased in the years after major wars, as soldiers found themselves without employment and thus material support. A good example of this was the period after The Anarchy in the 12th century England. England, being relatively isolated for the purpose of moving large numbers of people in and out, saw lots of former fighters without a job and the prospect to be shipped to another conflict, and a lot of them turned to banditry.

On a smaller scale, banditry was a persistent problem as well. In England, many areas were quite safe, but the lack of rule of law on the Welsh and especially Scottish marches led disaffected men to turn to banditry in smaller groups, between 5 and 20, to rob people on the roads. In this case, travelers and local men would group together to fight off the bandits and/or bring them to justice. However this remained a (much, much less serious than the example above) problem throughout the medieval period.


So yes!

 

[DraconDarknight]

Around 2:19, this isn't the original video I saw but it's the same program

EDIT: BTW I never said this was a good idea, just possible

Yeah they never tested the axe or the two handed sword slashing at it though - That would have made at least a life threatening dent.

 

[Camernater3]

He pierced it by an inch, without the underclothing that most knights would have worn underneath. The leathers/clothes beneath would also slow the sword further. Also, an inch is nothing compared to how thick the armour and the underclothing would be. You might get a tiny pierce from the tip of the sword, but nothing that won't heal over in a few days. It certainly wouldn't be fatal, not even close.
Also, he had to prepare the sword by placing it exactly where he wanted to pierce, and took a good few seconds to actually do that stabbing. In a battle, that would take waaaay too long to be practical, especially that close to the guy you're trying to kill.

There is a huge difference between stabbing a piece of armour on its own with all the time in the world and actually using this in a battle. You would certainly die before you got even close to doing that. Sorry Camernater, but that video proves nothing when put into practice.

1 MM armor can be pierced that way.

The more common 2-3 MM armor wouldnt be pierced that way.

BTW I never said this was a good idea, just possible

There would be a few people who wouldn't have thick under armor/clothes and just wear regular if they can't afford the full thing, I also said it is possible, NOT A GOOD IDEA (just to make sure you got that bit, not meant to be angry sounding) and if you are doing what I said above, just getting the best armor you can to protect you with what money you happen to have, you might get 1mm armor since it would be cheaper.

EDIT: Say your opponent is on the ground, you have more time if you you and some mates just going against the one guy for whatever reason.

 

[Exclaimer]

Say your opponent is on the ground, you have more time if you you and some mates just going against the one guy for whatever reason.

But then, you could just stick the sword into the guy's visor, saving you all sorts of time.

 

[Camernater3]

But then, you could just stick the sword into the guy's visor, saving you all sorts of time.

maybe he's wrong way up? Or maybe you decided to make a really stupid choice?

 

[Angryboy]

maybe he's wrong way up? Or maybe you decided to make a really stupid choice?

There would usually be a gap between the helmet and breast-plate unless they were wearing neck/shoulder-armour (gorget, bevor, spaulders or pauldrons). This would be visible regardless of which way they were turned up, and stabbing there would be far more effective than stabbing at the chest and making a tiny mark on them. Also, it wouldn't take a lot to roll the person over.

The time and preparation in a move like the one you've shown us is simply too much for the minor (if any) damage done to be worth doing. Especially when better options, such as stabbing through the visor, were available.

Also on stabbing through the visor, that was much more common than you'd think. Gregor's video shows how knights would use it after downing an opponent... and its a lot quicker than trying to stab through the plate-armour. Archers, men-at-arms and other "common soldiers" would most likely be carrying knives as well, and use them on the battlefield, stabbing downed knights because there was no chance in hell of them landing a good hit on them otherwise.