Lord_Sinclair
Lord of Altera
This thread is meant to serve as a discussion area for Nation States players to provide their opinions on whether a reset of the Nation States region should occur, as well as how such a reset might be properly put into place.
An thread for an official vote on whether or not a reset should occur will be posted after this discussion has helped form everyone's positions on the matter. Seeing as votes in polls cannot be changed after the fact, I believe it is necessary to have the discussion in a thread prior to posting a poll for final opinions.
I shall begin by outlining my own plan for how a reset should be handled.
In short, the idea is as was outlined on the Planet thread:
1. All players create new nations at precisely the same time to eliminate Nation States stats differentials.
2. A new map is created in which each nation starts in one of many small territories from which they may expand into other small territories over a gradual expansion process.
Why?
It has come to my attention that many nations are beginning to feel trapped under the current RP system. Some nations feel as though they are too proportionately small to ever become a global superpower, thus limiting their political ceiling. Other nations initially created their nations without realizing how absorbed into the RP they would become, and they now wish to create new nations that will better reflect their desires.
In my opinion, the reason for this discontent stems from the integration of old and new nations that was used as a host of new nations joined the region that could not possibly match the stats of the older, established nations. The result was a system in which Nation States stats could not be accurately used to reflect balance between nations, thus resulting in a scenario where stats could not be fairly used but were simultaneously used by nearly all nations.
As far as I can see, the only true remedy for this problem is a full reset of all nations. If all nations begin together, then their stats will better reflect their true places in the region. Stats are an integral part of the Nation States system, and the only way for us to fairly RP under this system is to have these stats grow from the same starting point, aka time, which they currently do most certainly not grow from.
If we are to do a full reset of all nations, then we must also do a full reset of the map. I believe it would be extremely awkward to place new nations on an old map. Besides, many nations have long been upset with the current map. I believe a new map, one voted on out of a set of choices, would appeal to more players and quiet those who are upset with the current map.
What, exactly?
I have come up with a basic step-by-step process for how we should go about doing a reset.
1. A thread is created to discuss the prospects of a reset and gain input from the player base. A reset is useless if it is initiated behind closed doors. On this thread, players would debate the details of a reset, but would not vote on actually having a reset. (That's this thread!)
2. A thread is created with a poll to vote on the various methods of reset, as outlined from the previous thread. If certain points of the main plan are contentious, they may be put as separate poll options. An option to have no reset at all would also be available on the poll.
3. A date for all players to create their new nations is set and announced. This announcement should come at least a week in advance of the creation date. This step is crucial in ensuring that everyone has the opportunity to have as level a playing field as possible.
4. After the reset poll, and assuming it passes, of course, a thread with a list of maps to vote upon is released. This poll thread can be posted before the "creation date" as the map should not affect the creation of nations, merely their development.
5. Once a map is voted on, the mapmakers will take their time in partitioning the map into a plethora of small territories. The basic concept is that these small territories, similar in nature to how Europa Universalis works, can individually be incorporated into nations rather than leaving many large territories that cannot be easily incorporated.
I believe one of the errors we, or more precisely I, made in placing nations on the old map was that I tried to immediately fill as much of the map as possible. Every nation was just given an amount of land, and that amount was neither earned nor necessarily appropriate. By splitting the map into perhaps a hundred small territories or more, it will be easier to allocate land as it should be properly allocated. I will explain this more in-depth in the "How?" section below.
6. The partitioned map is released, and the previously "old" nations are granted first-pick on the territories they wish to start in as compensation for having them forego their old nations for new ones.
Depending on the RP excuse for the reset that is implemented, the following nations would likely fall into this "old" category: Mechanica Rationalis, Volopia, Sincronia, New Tiarch, Arcturix, Sprakia, in that order. Past those six, there is a significant drop-off in population and, thus, a drop-off in the age of the nations in question.
7. All other nations are allowed to pick their territories of choice. At this point, it would be best to randomize the order in which picks are made as most nations past the initial six, or however many are included in the "old" nations category, are essentially comparable in size and overall stats. Furthermore, one of the points of this reset is to level the playing field, so it would be wise to avoid using the stats of old nations too much in determining the settlement of new nations.
How?
This is where I'll explain in more detail how I imagine the territorial expansion would work.
Each nation picks one, and only one, territory to claim to start. As aforementioned, "old" nations will be granted first pick.
An immediate benefit of this plan is that there would be a host of unclaimed territories for new nations to easily slip into whenever they arrive. I intend to make sure that expansion is a gradual process rather than a rushed "claim ALL the land!" ordeal.
By the time the map is ready and players have made their picks, the new nations should have a couple of weeks of progress under their belts in order to provide a general idea of the strengths of the various nations. No RP of consequence should commence before everyone has been placed on the map.
Once RP begins, each nation will be able to expand in accordance with their new stats. This is one area of my plan in which discussion would be beneficial to better iron out which stats would be used.
As an example, I have already used the Defense Forces stat, during the Nomads War, to determine how many "units" a nation would have as if we were playing Civ 5. This stat could be used to provide nations with military units they can then proceed to use to occupy other territories and expand their empire.
The method used for claiming unclaimed territories should be voided when attempting to claim player owned territories. To promote RP, I do think it's necessary to turn the system over to RP after a while. Any territorial claiming system should only apply to unclaimed territories that players can't really RP with someone else over.
I believe it would be wise to have different types of units, but I don't think economic units should be one of them. When rethinking things over, I concluded that using the economy stats would likely lead to lots of nations getting lots of land far too quickly. Players can still try to use their economic stats to deal with other players, but those stats shouldn't be used when dealing with unclaimed territories.
Instead, I believe we should take a cue from Civ 5 and primarily base units off of Defense Forces, Culture, and Religiousness, as those are the main categories that would lead to border expansion in Civ 5. I also believe that relying on this structure would be fairer to all nations, as there will most certainly be some nations that do not want to be forced into becoming military powerhouses to expand territorially.
A more concise explanation is as follows:
> A nation may lay claim to a neighboring territory for every 5 Culture points they gain.
> A nation may lay claim to a neighboring territory for every 5 Religiousness points they gain.
> A nation may lay claim to a neighboring territory by keeping a Defense Force unit in the territory, unopposed, for the length of the claiming period.
> A nation may only have as many Defense Force units as they have Defense Force points divided by 10, rounding down.
> RP is the only way to attempt to claim a territory already controlled by a player. Stats may be used to guide the RP, but the procedures used to claim unclaimed territories do not apply to already claimed territories.
> All claims by all nations are updated weekly at the same time. Defense Force units must be present and unopposed in the territory they wish to claim at the update time for them to successfully gain the territory.
As the concise explanation implies, the method used for claiming unclaimed territories should be voided when attempting to claim player owned territories. To promote RP, I do think it's necessary to turn the system over to RP after a while. Any territorial claiming system should only apply to unclaimed territories that players can't really RP with someone else over.
Somewhat key to this system, we would also have to establish a time it takes for units to move between territories. First, for convenience, we should assume that all units can immediately travel over water rather than force additional naval units to be made. Secondly, I believe a "Risk" movement style, with units moving one territory per week, would be ideal during the claiming period. Once nations have held a territory for a week or two, though, roads should be built connecting the territory to the heart of the nation, thus allowing units to travel much faster throughout the nation.
I must stress that this claiming procedure is by all means open for discussion. I feel that any procedure must rely on stats in some way or form, however, to prevent a free-for-all situation with no checks and balances.
But what's the excuse for all of this?
That's another point that's open for discussion. Most people don't seem to need an RP excuse, but there are other people, who basically demand that there be some sort of RP excuse for a reset.
As far as I'm concerned, space colonization seems like the best RP excuse. There can be an apocalypse on the old world, if desired, but I don't think that's really all that necessary if we're all making new nations, anyways. So long as the new world has some reason to not be in contact with the old world, that's good enough for me.
Regardless of whether or not a nation would have the tech for space travel, we will assume that they were granted passage on someone's ship. Or, alternately, we could force people to RP to gain admission. Between Arcturix, Sincronia, and Mechanica, I think most of the world would find someone to board with.
Upon arrival in the new world, nations should not have large populations or incredible databases stored with technology and the like. One of the key OOC points of this reset is the stats reset, so there will need to be an RP excuse or two leading to the loss of knowledge about old world ways. For example, there could be critical malfunctions that send all the ships up in flames once everyone's landed.
Like with the claiming procedure from before, this is something that can be better ironed out with a general discussion.
Anything else?
Some people have stated their intent to create elven nations, upon a reset, and that gave me an idea:
Why not have humans, the colonization crew, in other words, discover and attempt to settle a "fantasy" world with elves and dwarves?
Basically, this would be Avatar (not the last airbender) in Alteran form. Humans come onto the scene, elves and dwarves (and anything else) must respond in kind. Various elven and dwarven kingdoms can be scattered across the new world, and the player-controlled nations (still only one territory to start, mind you) would have to conquer or ally with the NPC nations on the map to try and contest human advancement.
An important point of this would be the absence of magic and magical traits. For example, elves would clearly not be allowed to be immortal.
All in all, this last idea about colonizing a "fantasy" world is just a little idea; it's by no means attached to everything else. Like everything, this idea can be discussed in a general thread.
Anything ~else~?
Yep!
I believe that another key part of any plan should be the implementation of some "hard rules" to ensure that immersion is not broken by sporadical tech development or high-fantasy elements.
Currently, my list of "hard rules" is as follows:
> No magic.
> There will be a short list of accepted races that must be adhered to; likely, this list would be humans, elves, and dwarves.
> There is no significant disparity in racial traits (aka, elves aren't immortal, etc).
> Issues must be classified, or more simply, the too-crazy ones must be commonly discarded (aka, moon cannons are no longer canon).
> All nations begin with modern day tech. Upon reaching a Scientific Advancement Level of 100, a nation may gain one, and only one, sudo-futuristic tech (aka tech that is, or could reasonably be, researched within the next 50 years). This tech must be verified by OOC consent to ensure that it does not break immersion. Each nation may gain an additional sudo-futuristic tech for every 100 SALs (@ 200, 300, 400, etc). Mechanica Rationalis may start with synthetics, but advanced cyborg tech and other organic-to-synthetic tech must be obtained via the level-up system beginning at a SAL of 100.
Allow me to explain my reasoning behind that last point.
At the moment, we have the awkward situation where some nations have significantly higher SALs than most other nations. This should mean that SALs are completely ignored, but we're already having issues with trying to regulate what tech is realistic when resorting to means other than SALs. As it stands, we can't seem to create an umbrella system to regulate tech.
With a stats reset from creating new nations, however, we will have the opportunity to finally implement an umbrella tech code, and I believe we should jump on this opportunity. As such, my tech code system would be as I outlined above. Such a tech code would, in my opinion, still grant advantages to nations pushing science, get everyone on the same page for what tech era we're in, and still provide the opportunity for nations to develop unique, sudo-futuristic tech of their choosing whilst simultaneously attempting to prevent absurd tech from arising that would break immersion.
To finally conclude...
In short, I'd like for us to develop a basic plan for if and how to go about a world reset in Nation States. I believe a reset would benefit RP significantly and would be well worth the time and sacrifice.
Let me know what you think, and I'm prepared to answer any concerns you may have about my basic plan to the best of my ability! And, of course, I'm always open to suggestions!
An thread for an official vote on whether or not a reset should occur will be posted after this discussion has helped form everyone's positions on the matter. Seeing as votes in polls cannot be changed after the fact, I believe it is necessary to have the discussion in a thread prior to posting a poll for final opinions.
I shall begin by outlining my own plan for how a reset should be handled.
In short, the idea is as was outlined on the Planet thread:
1. All players create new nations at precisely the same time to eliminate Nation States stats differentials.
2. A new map is created in which each nation starts in one of many small territories from which they may expand into other small territories over a gradual expansion process.
Why?
It has come to my attention that many nations are beginning to feel trapped under the current RP system. Some nations feel as though they are too proportionately small to ever become a global superpower, thus limiting their political ceiling. Other nations initially created their nations without realizing how absorbed into the RP they would become, and they now wish to create new nations that will better reflect their desires.
In my opinion, the reason for this discontent stems from the integration of old and new nations that was used as a host of new nations joined the region that could not possibly match the stats of the older, established nations. The result was a system in which Nation States stats could not be accurately used to reflect balance between nations, thus resulting in a scenario where stats could not be fairly used but were simultaneously used by nearly all nations.
As far as I can see, the only true remedy for this problem is a full reset of all nations. If all nations begin together, then their stats will better reflect their true places in the region. Stats are an integral part of the Nation States system, and the only way for us to fairly RP under this system is to have these stats grow from the same starting point, aka time, which they currently do most certainly not grow from.
If we are to do a full reset of all nations, then we must also do a full reset of the map. I believe it would be extremely awkward to place new nations on an old map. Besides, many nations have long been upset with the current map. I believe a new map, one voted on out of a set of choices, would appeal to more players and quiet those who are upset with the current map.
What, exactly?
I have come up with a basic step-by-step process for how we should go about doing a reset.
1. A thread is created to discuss the prospects of a reset and gain input from the player base. A reset is useless if it is initiated behind closed doors. On this thread, players would debate the details of a reset, but would not vote on actually having a reset. (That's this thread!)
2. A thread is created with a poll to vote on the various methods of reset, as outlined from the previous thread. If certain points of the main plan are contentious, they may be put as separate poll options. An option to have no reset at all would also be available on the poll.
3. A date for all players to create their new nations is set and announced. This announcement should come at least a week in advance of the creation date. This step is crucial in ensuring that everyone has the opportunity to have as level a playing field as possible.
4. After the reset poll, and assuming it passes, of course, a thread with a list of maps to vote upon is released. This poll thread can be posted before the "creation date" as the map should not affect the creation of nations, merely their development.
5. Once a map is voted on, the mapmakers will take their time in partitioning the map into a plethora of small territories. The basic concept is that these small territories, similar in nature to how Europa Universalis works, can individually be incorporated into nations rather than leaving many large territories that cannot be easily incorporated.
I believe one of the errors we, or more precisely I, made in placing nations on the old map was that I tried to immediately fill as much of the map as possible. Every nation was just given an amount of land, and that amount was neither earned nor necessarily appropriate. By splitting the map into perhaps a hundred small territories or more, it will be easier to allocate land as it should be properly allocated. I will explain this more in-depth in the "How?" section below.
6. The partitioned map is released, and the previously "old" nations are granted first-pick on the territories they wish to start in as compensation for having them forego their old nations for new ones.
Depending on the RP excuse for the reset that is implemented, the following nations would likely fall into this "old" category: Mechanica Rationalis, Volopia, Sincronia, New Tiarch, Arcturix, Sprakia, in that order. Past those six, there is a significant drop-off in population and, thus, a drop-off in the age of the nations in question.
7. All other nations are allowed to pick their territories of choice. At this point, it would be best to randomize the order in which picks are made as most nations past the initial six, or however many are included in the "old" nations category, are essentially comparable in size and overall stats. Furthermore, one of the points of this reset is to level the playing field, so it would be wise to avoid using the stats of old nations too much in determining the settlement of new nations.
How?
This is where I'll explain in more detail how I imagine the territorial expansion would work.
Each nation picks one, and only one, territory to claim to start. As aforementioned, "old" nations will be granted first pick.
An immediate benefit of this plan is that there would be a host of unclaimed territories for new nations to easily slip into whenever they arrive. I intend to make sure that expansion is a gradual process rather than a rushed "claim ALL the land!" ordeal.
By the time the map is ready and players have made their picks, the new nations should have a couple of weeks of progress under their belts in order to provide a general idea of the strengths of the various nations. No RP of consequence should commence before everyone has been placed on the map.
Once RP begins, each nation will be able to expand in accordance with their new stats. This is one area of my plan in which discussion would be beneficial to better iron out which stats would be used.
As an example, I have already used the Defense Forces stat, during the Nomads War, to determine how many "units" a nation would have as if we were playing Civ 5. This stat could be used to provide nations with military units they can then proceed to use to occupy other territories and expand their empire.
The method used for claiming unclaimed territories should be voided when attempting to claim player owned territories. To promote RP, I do think it's necessary to turn the system over to RP after a while. Any territorial claiming system should only apply to unclaimed territories that players can't really RP with someone else over.
I believe it would be wise to have different types of units, but I don't think economic units should be one of them. When rethinking things over, I concluded that using the economy stats would likely lead to lots of nations getting lots of land far too quickly. Players can still try to use their economic stats to deal with other players, but those stats shouldn't be used when dealing with unclaimed territories.
Instead, I believe we should take a cue from Civ 5 and primarily base units off of Defense Forces, Culture, and Religiousness, as those are the main categories that would lead to border expansion in Civ 5. I also believe that relying on this structure would be fairer to all nations, as there will most certainly be some nations that do not want to be forced into becoming military powerhouses to expand territorially.
A more concise explanation is as follows:
> A nation may lay claim to a neighboring territory for every 5 Culture points they gain.
> A nation may lay claim to a neighboring territory for every 5 Religiousness points they gain.
> A nation may lay claim to a neighboring territory by keeping a Defense Force unit in the territory, unopposed, for the length of the claiming period.
> A nation may only have as many Defense Force units as they have Defense Force points divided by 10, rounding down.
> RP is the only way to attempt to claim a territory already controlled by a player. Stats may be used to guide the RP, but the procedures used to claim unclaimed territories do not apply to already claimed territories.
> All claims by all nations are updated weekly at the same time. Defense Force units must be present and unopposed in the territory they wish to claim at the update time for them to successfully gain the territory.
As the concise explanation implies, the method used for claiming unclaimed territories should be voided when attempting to claim player owned territories. To promote RP, I do think it's necessary to turn the system over to RP after a while. Any territorial claiming system should only apply to unclaimed territories that players can't really RP with someone else over.
Somewhat key to this system, we would also have to establish a time it takes for units to move between territories. First, for convenience, we should assume that all units can immediately travel over water rather than force additional naval units to be made. Secondly, I believe a "Risk" movement style, with units moving one territory per week, would be ideal during the claiming period. Once nations have held a territory for a week or two, though, roads should be built connecting the territory to the heart of the nation, thus allowing units to travel much faster throughout the nation.
I must stress that this claiming procedure is by all means open for discussion. I feel that any procedure must rely on stats in some way or form, however, to prevent a free-for-all situation with no checks and balances.
But what's the excuse for all of this?
That's another point that's open for discussion. Most people don't seem to need an RP excuse, but there are other people, who basically demand that there be some sort of RP excuse for a reset.
As far as I'm concerned, space colonization seems like the best RP excuse. There can be an apocalypse on the old world, if desired, but I don't think that's really all that necessary if we're all making new nations, anyways. So long as the new world has some reason to not be in contact with the old world, that's good enough for me.
Regardless of whether or not a nation would have the tech for space travel, we will assume that they were granted passage on someone's ship. Or, alternately, we could force people to RP to gain admission. Between Arcturix, Sincronia, and Mechanica, I think most of the world would find someone to board with.
Upon arrival in the new world, nations should not have large populations or incredible databases stored with technology and the like. One of the key OOC points of this reset is the stats reset, so there will need to be an RP excuse or two leading to the loss of knowledge about old world ways. For example, there could be critical malfunctions that send all the ships up in flames once everyone's landed.
Like with the claiming procedure from before, this is something that can be better ironed out with a general discussion.
Anything else?
Some people have stated their intent to create elven nations, upon a reset, and that gave me an idea:
Why not have humans, the colonization crew, in other words, discover and attempt to settle a "fantasy" world with elves and dwarves?
Basically, this would be Avatar (not the last airbender) in Alteran form. Humans come onto the scene, elves and dwarves (and anything else) must respond in kind. Various elven and dwarven kingdoms can be scattered across the new world, and the player-controlled nations (still only one territory to start, mind you) would have to conquer or ally with the NPC nations on the map to try and contest human advancement.
An important point of this would be the absence of magic and magical traits. For example, elves would clearly not be allowed to be immortal.
All in all, this last idea about colonizing a "fantasy" world is just a little idea; it's by no means attached to everything else. Like everything, this idea can be discussed in a general thread.
Anything ~else~?
Yep!
I believe that another key part of any plan should be the implementation of some "hard rules" to ensure that immersion is not broken by sporadical tech development or high-fantasy elements.
Currently, my list of "hard rules" is as follows:
> No magic.
> There will be a short list of accepted races that must be adhered to; likely, this list would be humans, elves, and dwarves.
> There is no significant disparity in racial traits (aka, elves aren't immortal, etc).
> Issues must be classified, or more simply, the too-crazy ones must be commonly discarded (aka, moon cannons are no longer canon).
> All nations begin with modern day tech. Upon reaching a Scientific Advancement Level of 100, a nation may gain one, and only one, sudo-futuristic tech (aka tech that is, or could reasonably be, researched within the next 50 years). This tech must be verified by OOC consent to ensure that it does not break immersion. Each nation may gain an additional sudo-futuristic tech for every 100 SALs (@ 200, 300, 400, etc). Mechanica Rationalis may start with synthetics, but advanced cyborg tech and other organic-to-synthetic tech must be obtained via the level-up system beginning at a SAL of 100.
Allow me to explain my reasoning behind that last point.
At the moment, we have the awkward situation where some nations have significantly higher SALs than most other nations. This should mean that SALs are completely ignored, but we're already having issues with trying to regulate what tech is realistic when resorting to means other than SALs. As it stands, we can't seem to create an umbrella system to regulate tech.
With a stats reset from creating new nations, however, we will have the opportunity to finally implement an umbrella tech code, and I believe we should jump on this opportunity. As such, my tech code system would be as I outlined above. Such a tech code would, in my opinion, still grant advantages to nations pushing science, get everyone on the same page for what tech era we're in, and still provide the opportunity for nations to develop unique, sudo-futuristic tech of their choosing whilst simultaneously attempting to prevent absurd tech from arising that would break immersion.
To finally conclude...
In short, I'd like for us to develop a basic plan for if and how to go about a world reset in Nation States. I believe a reset would benefit RP significantly and would be well worth the time and sacrifice.
Let me know what you think, and I'm prepared to answer any concerns you may have about my basic plan to the best of my ability! And, of course, I'm always open to suggestions!
