Metagaming

[Tybalt]

One form of meta gaming I've seen.

Someone Messages you if you want to RP under the impression that it's civil. And then it turns out to be the most violent of things.

Eh, it's drawing the character into a certain place they would not be, simply because they are bored and want to RP. Drawing them into traps that way basically.

And of course the biggest form of meta gaming is the famous meta map... I highly reccomend we bring back /dynmap hide to prevent meta

As I've seen it used in meta in many instances when someone is trying to be sneaky.

One being, a whole town being alert with their guards patrolling everywhere, when, had they not known someone was coming they most likely would be doing what they regularly do.

Another example was someone knocked on a persons front door, and then walked around back. Well for some reason the person inside went to the back door, and didn't answer the knock on the front door.

One is twisting another characters words so your character misunderstands it and gain something from it.

Character A was telling character B about some bandits in their fort.Person A didn't want Person B to know where their fort was. So all he said was that he sent soo many people to reclaim a Fort that used to belong to their nation.

Character B decided that he didn't hear the word /their/. So he decided to go to a fort he knew.

Person B should know that Person A didn't have any forts up north. Nor has Person A ever Campaigned up North or expands out of the South.

So Person B decides to go up and search a fort in the North. A fort that had exactly what he wanted to find in it. His claim for horribly misinterpreting character A's information was the claim that he was stupid. Yet that character worships Silas.

Also note, The character that was telling character B about one of his forts being infested by bandits. Doesn't even know the existence of the fort in the north.

Gain your knowledge by research and investigation. Not accidental misunderstandings that was done purposefully to accidentally achieve what you wanted.

 

[Sassy]

So if I'm not allowed to use the map to find RP, am I just supposed to sit in my secluded village for two hours and wait for a player to pass by? :c

Some of us don't have the time to walk around aimlessly through all the areas of Altera only to look for someone to talk to. Sometimes I just want to log on an have some fun roleplay. I mean come on, I don't like meta gaming either, but there's got to be a limit?

Choosing to live in a secluded village is not a valid excuse for metagaming- (or atleast it shouldn't be) and if you "did not choose to live there", you must be terribly mistaken. I promise I'm not trying to be rude but it gets to a point where the choices you make in roleplay surprisingly do have an effect on how much roleplay you receive. EX: If you are locked in a tower that is secluded, there's a reason that its secluded. You may scream and yell from your cell but your roleplay actions sometimes come with mild ooc consequences. It's not something that can always be helped, but it certainly is a choice you make for your character. (In some rare cases in which it is not your choice, then I can see it being an issue, but it often fits the latter)

 

[Anithola]

Choosing to live in a secluded village is not a valid excuse for metagaming- (or atleast it shouldn't be) and if you "did not choose to live there", you must be terribly mistaken. I promise I'm not trying to be rude but it gets to a point where the choices you make in roleplay surprisingly do have an effect on how much roleplay you receive. EX: If you are locked in a tower that is secluded, there's a reason that its secluded. You may scream and yell from your cell but your roleplay actions sometimes come with mild ooc consequences. It's not something that can always be helped, but it certainly is a choice you make for your character. (In some rare cases in which it is not your choice, then I can see it being an issue, but it often fits the latter)

I only mentioned the secluded village thing to put it on the edge, I definitely see where you are coming from. What I mean is, when a server normally has around 20 players online, in such a big world as Altera, it is sometimes difficult to find RP without using the map or planning it out beforehand. I always find IC reasons for why my character would be at any given place, however I think people should be allowed to use the map to save them hours of OOC time and energy

 

[7632]

The existence of the dynmap with player location on is not per-se metagaming. Likewise, asking somebody OOC whether they want to RP is not per-se metagaming. What would be considered meta would be using the information you learned from looking at the map or asking whether a player wants to RP to steer your character toward or away from a certain situation. By the strictest definition, that is meta.

This doesn't necessarily mean we should not allow people to ask whether they want to RP. I could ask OOC whether a player wants to RP, and then I can make my character want a reason to look for and find the player who agreed to RP. As long as I don't use the player's location, it's not meta.

Likewise, if you use the map to know of player locations but do not allow your player to use that information, you can also avoid meta.

Finally, it has been suggested that we should remove or disallow features like players on dynmap. I disagree. I think a better strategy would be to try to make these features in-character. For example, every player can carry a map that updates player locations, much like how the marauder's map works. We have pocket dimensions, magic, potions, et cetera... I don't think it's too far fetched to have a marauder's map.

edit: I agree that /dynmap hide should be a thing.

 

[Scardrac]

I used /dynmap hide often. It certainly reduced the metagaming with me, especially since Scardrac was a HVT at the time.

 

[FrostGuardian]

1) Arranging an RP meet up through OOC means.

While I agree with your post (for the most part), it must be addressed that the first clause is far too broad. For example, if one were to ask another player, via a social medium such as Skype, to roleplay in-game, it cannot be outright declared as meta-gaming. For one, it is very feasible that the two aforementioned players decided to have their characters meet in a location that they almost always see each other, such as their favorite pub, one another's house or chambers, or anywhere that both parties have established through in character means to frequent together. Speaking quite frankly, it is ridiculous to think players should go through an unnecessary amount of trouble to roleplay on a roleplay server. Lest the characters need to meet somewhere they usually do not, then I would deem it necessary to use the APS or owls. I am not accusing you of holding the views of which I have just denounced, merely making the shortcomings of the first clause evident, so that it may be refined (namely, the choice of word "arranged").

Of course, there is many a situation in which players will blatantly meta-game by having their characters converge at unlikely locations. There isn't necessarily a way to stop that completely, as that would require a blockage of OOC communication (once again, a silly proposition), but its prevention can be enforced by our competent staff. However, this requires players to report such issues in a calm and collected manner, which, based off of my observations, is something that a portion of the player base have trouble doing. (Note, I am starting to digress.) If the players of HollowWorld want less drama being spawned as a result of meta-gaming, then I would recommend not going absolutely berserk when it is evident, and instead allow the staff to deal with it in an objective manner that would incite no further outrage or create a vendetta.

It is an unfortunate reality that meta-gaming will continue to exist and is ultimately inevitable. Perhaps how we deal with it is something that should be more focused on, rather than arbitrarily remove the Dynamic Map or other "solutions" that limit what players can do.

 

[aidoninja]

I used /dynmap hide often. It certainly reduced the metagaming with me, especially since Scardrac was a HVT at the time.

I think bringing thag command back is a good idea, dont wana be see? Use /dynmap hide so people cant "wonder" to you

 

[Megadonkey30]

Dynamic map is the largest cause of all of this. It's ridiculous how much meta happens because of it. It needs to be removed, in my opinion. Or even better, have players hidden on the map, so people can still look at builds around Altera.

Metamap you mean

 

[BarbarianGaming]

@Scardrac I used dynamo hide often aswell and it helped with metagaming.

 

[The Courier]

One form of meta gaming I've seen.

Someone Messages you if you want to RP under the impression that it's civil. And then it turns out to be the most violent of things.

Eh, it's drawing the character into a certain place they would not be, simply because they are bored and want to RP. Drawing them into traps that way basically.

And of course the biggest form of meta gaming is the famous meta map... I highly reccomend we bring back /dynmap hide to prevent meta

As I've seen it used in meta in many instances when someone is trying to be sneaky.

One being, a whole town being alert with their guards patrolling everywhere, when, had they not known someone was coming they most likely would be doing what they regularly do.

Another example was someone knocked on a persons front door, and then walked around back. Well for some reason the person inside went to the back door, and didn't answer the knock on the front door.

One is twisting another characters words so your character misunderstands it and gain something from it.

Character A was telling character B about some bandits in their fort.Person A didn't want Person B to know where their fort was. So all he said was that he sent soo many people to reclaim a Fort that used to belong to their nation.

Character B decided that he didn't hear the word /their/. So he decided to go to a fort he knew.

Person B should know that Person A didn't have any forts up north. Nor has Person A ever Campaigned up North or expands out of the South.

So Person B decides to go up and search a fort in the North. A fort that had exactly what he wanted to find in it. His claim for horribly misinterpreting character A's information was the claim that he was stupid. Yet that character worships Silas.

Also note, The character that was telling character B about one of his forts being infested by bandits. Doesn't even know the existence of the fort in the north.

Gain your knowledge by research and investigation. Not accidental misunderstandings that was done purposefully to accidentally achieve what you wanted.

1. Lol the metamap is real, I know that feeling.
2. Seems to me that misreading is a large portion of people doing things differently IC. I've seen combat RPs where people will misread or misunderstand movements entirely which cause faulty decisions.
3. Is it wrong for someone to mishear someone? You mean to tell me you absolutely perfectly and undeniably understand everything someone says to you at a given time without ever having to ask "What?" "Can you repeat that?"

 

[Scardrac]

Subconscious metagaming is a thing, too, people. Everyone does it.

 

[Tybalt]

Aye

1. Lol the metamap is real, I know that feeling.
2. Seems to me that misreading is a large portion of people doing things differently IC. I've seen combat RPs where people will misread or misunderstand movements entirely which cause faulty decisions.
3. Is it wrong for someone to mishear someone? You mean to tell me you absolutely perfectly and undeniably understand everything someone says to you at a given time without ever having to ask "What?" "Can you repeat that?"

A character that is investigating a serious case, erm.

I mean... It's extremely coincidental that someone would find what they are looking for accidentally, by misunderstanding, when they were talking about a fort nowhere near there

 

[The Courier]

Aye

A character that is investigating a serious case, erm.

I mean... It's extremely coincidental that someone would find what they are looking for accidentally, by misunderstanding, when they were talking about a fort nowhere near there

Just like how Columbus accidentally founded a new continent, eh? Aye, it is odd when such things happen, I can agree there. However, even I must admit my own inadequacy, I've done stupid things that ended up working after mishearing or interpreting someone.

 

[Teeke]

Just like how Columbus accidentally founded a new continent, eh? Aye, it is odd when such things happen, I can agree there. However, even I must admit my own inadequacy, I've done stupid things that ended up working after mishearing or interpreting someone.

a) Columbus discovered Haiti.
b) Amerigo Vespucci landed on the North American continent.
c) Vikings had mapped the east coast of America before this
d) Natives

 

[Baron]

e) The mole people forerunners who struck down the World Turtle and made its shell into North America.

 

[Gaby]

... Well I didn't expect this thread to turn into a discussion of the metamap.

Though that does seem to be a bit of a concern, it wasn't what i had in mind when discussing metagaming.

Subconscious metagaming is a thing, too, people. Everyone does it.

This was more along the lines of what I wanted to discuss. Subtler forms of metagaming. Things like this:

Itachi, a wanted criminal, wears a disguise, but for some reason, everyone in the general vicinity can identify him through a number of ridiculous means (when really, the players read his name)

Or

Itachi is a nobleman who secretly follows a heretical god, but as soon as this is revealed on his forum profile, everyone suddenly starts "randomly" asking him about the gods, or finding him suspicious. (When really, the only reason everyone's suspicious is because they read his profile)

Or

Itachi the wanted criminal is hiding in the woods. Suddenly, like five people are having a jaunty stroll in those same woods, and find him by sheer "coincidence"

That's some serious metagaming. That ruins the story, makes villains too easily defeated, makes it incredibly hard for characters to keep secrets, and as a result, players who want to keep IC secrets might go to ridiculous, paranoid lengths in order to avoid being the victim of metagaming.

To continue using Itachi as an example, Itachi's player decides to quote-on-quote "kill off Itachi," and then starts playing as a "new character" named Roxas, who looks vaguely similar to Itachi. Roxas' profile is incredibly vague.

Which I think is really sad, because now people who play a character with a secret have three options:

A) deal with questioning every single person who metas out the secret, and have to pick apart all the excuses given them,
B) never let the other players in on the secret, essentially sacrificing the element of suspense for some piece of mind,
Or C), have the secret or the character be so irrelevant, nobody bothers to meta it.

Which, I mean, can't we trust the general community to not metagame? Do we really have to use /dynmap hide and write vague character profiles, just to prevent other people from meta-ing to the point that a character is made unplayable?

I mean, people complain about the lack of villains, but then an evil character can never actually have enough power to do anything, because everyone knows they're a villain, and nobody trusts them.

 

[RexJen]

1) Arranging an RP meet up through OOC means.
2) Using OOC information in an IC way.
3) Using the map to figure out where RP might be occurring. ((same as #2 but deserves its own mention))
4) Through purely OOC means ( OOC building, OOC discussion, etc ) causing something IC to happen.
5) Inviting someone to join you someplace OOC but then turning it into an IC event.
6) Harassing someone OOC because of something they have done IC.
7) Sharing money between accounts/characters.

1) This is ridiculous and petty, if you are upset that 'immersion' is being broken by people wanting to actually /do/ something on the server I dont know what to say
2) Completely agree with this
3) Who even does this!
4) If someone goes "This happened to this person, they have changed in this way" and then I go "That sounds interesting, maybe they should meet up so I can know about it ic" I dont think thats meta
5) Uhm... okay?
6) This part really does bother me, as although I have not experienced it very much, I see people have to deal with all the people who want to prove that /they/ and no one else are the good guys, and that /you/ are the bad guy
7) How is this metagaming? If my alt does not have enough money to travel between towns and I send some money over to pay for the trips, how is that meta?

 

[Gaby]

3) Who even does this!

Everyone. Everyone does this at some point or another.

I do it sometimes. Or did, when my characters travelled more, and didn't have like, broken legs or were children.

I'd check out the dynmap like "is there anybody at the crossroads today"

Everyone does this.

 

[RexJen]

Everyone. Everyone does this at some point or another.

I do it sometimes. Or did, when my characters travelled more, and didn't have like, broken legs or were children.

I'd check out the dynmap like "is there anybody at the crossroads today"

Everyone does this.

I only use the dynmap when someone brings me to a place ic and I have no idea how to get there ooc

 

[Gaby]

Good for you.

But i really dont think we should be discussing the metamap and the lack of /dynmap hide. We can make another thread if we want to go through that nonsense