On Dual-Wielding and Spinning in Fights

[MRPolo13]

I kind of disagree and agree. As kind of mentioned, but not properly, daggers can be used effectively as left-handed weapons (and I say left-handed, because no one used their left hand as their main hand in Medieval times. They were taught not to). Parrying daggers became especially popular alongside rapiers and were happily applied instead of shields (or even sometimes alongside them). Parrying dagger, while not great for bashing, is actually a good cutting weapon and definitely a better thing to have when you have your opponent in a sword lock.
Also, there were some treatises which showed duels which applied two swords... But they're duels, from time period where duels may have been as much for recreational purposes as for killing someone. I don't really like to think that twin swords were used.

As for spinning, in certain forms of fencing, such as Polish sabre, pirouettes were an important part of one's defence and attack. Fighters would spin about, throwing their sabre behind them in a block, and then counter with a powerful blow. Alongside this, polearms could have been spun about to confuse the opponent and as a form of psychological weapon (and they can be such. People rarely take into consideration the psychological factor when fighting).

Look, we're in what's called a medieval FANTASY world. If someone does a spin attack, just role with it. . . But be reasonable. The fantasy part of the classification applies to more than just our setting. And honestly, absolutely nobody here is qualified to know just what would happen when certain techniques are used.

I practice re-enactment and normal sports-fencing. These are the only two facilities available to me, but I try to take away as much from them both as possible. On top of that, whatever I say I try to support with valid sources, especially HEMA trainers and professional historians, as well as occasional treatises (I'd love to be able to read Renaissance German or Italian, but I can only look at the pictures ). Perhaps I'm personally not qualified to comment on certain techniques applied, but people I use as reference definitely are.
On top of that, never, ever pull the "fantasy" card. Fantasy does not neglect the requirement for practicality, and if someone uses an arming sword, they will by hell use it like an arming sword, because mankind would have the time to spend on figuring out the ways in which they could make their moves the best and most practical.

Personally, I'm going to do my best to avoid RP fights at all costs until there is some form of DnD system in place where people's skill level cannot be lied about and the combat mechanics are all roles based on that skill. Until then, we will have these text walls faffing about on what you can and cannot do in a fight/ what you should and should not do. It gets more convoluted every time I read about it.

Hahah.. No. I prefer those texts than a badly flawed fighting system of DnD which takes literally no variables into consideration (although it's still better than roll d20 system currently applied by some people).
As a matter of fact, I'll say that RP fighting with melee weapons is impossible. To give an example; in Polish sabre (which Renatan sabre is based off), you'd be delivering blows in an almost constant stream of movement. In comparison to that, the use of a bastard sword would be all about false strikes and rarely actually moving at the opponent. In my opinion a bastard sword would stand no chance against a well trained user of the sabre in an unarmoured fight, simply because the speed is so great the bastard sword user is unable to parry properly. DnD rules would ignore that, of course.

 

[Catanomical]

That's how I work out... but it's with 10 pound weights... I could go for about half an hour, which is significantly longer than a fight, which should take 5-10 minutes max.

Also, with your theory, spin kicks would be useless, but I've seen people do a spin kick in around a second, which would not give your opponent sufficient time to react, considering that the fastest human reaction time is around 0.3 seconds, giving the body 0.7 seconds to register, respond, and go into action, something that for the average person, is impossible to do.

Using a greatsword and spinning I get that is powergaming, but using something like a dagger, which at most weighs... a pound, completely fine to do that. When you spin, you don't normally spin slow enough to be attacked in the back unless your opponent was already swinging at you. (Then, it's really your fault.)

Dual wielding also is not that horrible. Sure you open yourself up to attacks, but now there is a weapon to block with and a weapon to attack with. For your opponent, it could go bad very quickly, if you block their attacks and suddenly are attacking them at the same time, you'll be done in no time.

I'm just saying that there are situations where it works, and situations where it doesn't.

Spin kicks would not be useless. If it would be in a fight with a sword, in a fight where the opponent does not expect and is distracted thinking the other will do something else. Is effective as I said I do that IRL and I win. Reaction time as effect but people hesitate even if they are good. If you put as you said a spin kick, with someone abruptly doing the same thing out of no where, you would most likely not see it coming if they blend it in with even a other attack ,or just slip it in. As Dummy said if someone does it go with it, because "nobody is qualified" to really know what will happen. For things happen differently in a real life scenario when it happens and a RP scenario where the person has time to type, think, on how to counter it.

 

[Angryboy]

Okay not the best gif ever, but its the only one I have of this fight.

I did a bit of research after this and it turns out the style that Oberyn was fighting with is called Wushu and is basically a martial arts involving lots of circular motions and acrobatics. It works if you know how to handle it properly, and using a long-reaching weapon certain has its perks at this point assuming you can handle the recoil of landing a hit.

Yes you are leaving yourself exposed for 3/4 of the spin, but does that really matter when nobody can get close enough to actually hit you?
Also in the event that you are outnumbered with opponents on all sides, you're not gonna be concerned with protecting your flanks, right?
Disagree if you want; but I find that circular motions with a long-reaching weapon can be quite devastating in the right hands.

 

[MRPolo13]

View attachment 47396

Okay not the best gif ever, but its the only one I have of this fight.

I did a bit of research after this and it turns out the style that Oberyn was fighting with is called Wushu and is basically a martial arts involving lots of circular motions and acrobatics. It works if you know how to handle it properly, and using a long-reaching weapon certain has its perks at this point assuming you can handle the recoil of landing a hit.

Yes you are leaving yourself exposed for 3/4 of the spin, but does that really matter when nobody can get close enough to actually hit you?
Also in the event that you are outnumbered with opponents on all sides, you're not gonna be concerned with protecting your flanks, right?
Disagree if you want; but I find that circular motions with a long-reaching weapon can be quite devastating in the right hands.

About that. (SPOILERS INBOUND)

Spoiler

The fight is technically unrealistic, in that the Mountain gets stabbed through his chest with a spear at at least one point which seems to penetrate his armour. Realistically speaking, all that swinging about wouldn't have mattered, since the Mountain could quite literally walk into the spear and it wouldn't have mattered. Also, it's worth mentioning that according to the books the mountain used armour that is even thicker than normal and uses a shield. All this would mean that the viper would, with all of his fancy movements, stand quite literally no chance unless he managed to get into the weakspots such as the armpits or the backs of legs, which is what happens in the books and to a lesser extent in the film. However, the Mountain would be at a huge advantage, and people should stop using this fight as an example, because it really isn't. The martial art developed in Asia, which never saw a proper 30 kilograms worth of plate armour. I mean come on, you really think that Japanese Samurai armour or Chinese scale & mail was anywhere near as good as 14th century full plate? Fat chance.

 

[ACU20]

Why do i have a slight feeling this is inspired by Oberyn Martells fighting style. . ?

 

[Baron]

Why do i have a slight feeling this is inspired by Oberyn Martells fighting style. . ?

You'd be wrong. Spears are unrivalled long-range weapons and spinning them is just fine. I'm talking about people who spin around with swords and other short-range things.

 

[ACU20]

You'd be wrong. Spears are unrivalled long-range weapons and spinning them is just fine. I'm talking about people who spin around with swords and other short-range things.

I know, it was just the timing of the entire post and the new episode just adds to the allure.

 

[Angryboy]

You'd be wrong. Spears are unrivalled long-range weapons and spinning them is just fine. I'm talking about people who spin around with swords and other short-range things.

Note to self: Read the full thread before posting anything.

Like I said before, a long-reaching weapon being spun is great because nobody can get anywhere near you. As for swords? Yeah, they're not that good for spinning unless its a ridiculously long sword.

 

[ACU20]

Oh, i got one point. When people wield HUGE axes it takes a long time to raise it up and slash it at your enemies, so during the medieval and ancient times then twirled the axe around to gain momentum for the axe, but this was very tiring.

 

[MRPolo13]

Takes a while to draw the axe back, but actual swing itself is rather quick, especially when you let gravity do the work for you.

 

[Gregor]

Right, the problem is that our world is huge.

We have fighting styles from all over the world, weapons throughout the ages. There is no telling what is actually superior. A lot of weapons people name are weapons that evolved because of other developments.
If you ask me what the best weapon is for 1v1 or small scale combat? We could debate for hours.

And in roleplay, people have a lot of freedom in what the weapons are they used since, its fantasy!
But it is very hard to explain to everyone how these weapons worked, since people play a lot of videogames where those weapons... well work differently.
I think people should explain their weaponry and armor and what is capable of in their character profile, as that would make things much easier.

 

[Angryboy]

since people play a lot of videogames where those weapons... well work differently.

Then go without what would work in the real world, rather than what works in video-games. Swords are heavy things, and spinning one is certainly going to tire you out after a short while.

 

[Gregor]

Then go without what would work in the real world, rather than what works in video-games. Swords are heavy things, and spinning one is certainly going to tire you out after a short while.

I mean that a lot of people do these things not knowing how things worked in real life, and that is why they think such things work and dont tire people out.

 

[Itzzaboy]

GAREN CARES NOT FOR YOUR LOGIC!

DEMACIAAAAA!

 

[Redworrior83]

As has been stated in an earlier post, spinning is /very/ useful in certain situations. For example, it is quicker to spin out of the way of a knife that is being thrown than to side step, as side stepping, unless you saw the throw coming a mile off, is too slow of a reaction. Personally, I think that we need to come up with our /own/ DnD style combat system, that takes into effect all the issues we have mentioned here and allows people to use techniques that their character has /learnt/ instead of them powergaming and saying that their character knows how to use that technique in order to win a fight.
For example, one of my characters is small, thin and doesn't have much strength to speak of. If he was to punch you, it wouldn't do that much damage (Even though he would probably not punch you anyway) but he is very fast and could easily outrun someone who is A) Wearing armor that affects your center of gravity and makes it harder to run and B) Is carrying a weapon such as a sword of spear, as these hinder movement. He also knows a sword style similar to Ken-do and could use it in a fight (If it wasn't for his social anxiety that has nearly gotten him killed multiple times already. Stop picking on the disabled kid! Geez!)

 

[MaelstromPuddle]

*dual-wields rapiers, a large rapier being only 4lb when a large greatsword can be 16lb*

..
*isn't sure on where to go from here*

Why are you dual wielding Rapiers?

 

[Teeke]

Rapiers are relatively easy to dual wield. I'm still partial to buckler and rapier, but some like to dual wield these.

 

[Naelwyn]

Rapiers are relatively easy to dual wield. I'm still partial to buckler and rapier, but some like to dual wield these.

But... there's no point. Classical rapier technique has you leaning into thrusts, etc - it's not a weapon designed to be used in the offhand. What are you going to do, thrust both at once? Then you don't get any of the advantages to body positioning.

 

[Naelwyn]

I don't understand how anybody gets anywhere in an RP fight. . .

Look, we're in what's called a medieval FANTASY world. If someone does a spin attack, just role with it. . . But be reasonable. The fantasy part of the classification applies to more than just our setting. And honestly, absolutely nobody here is qualified to know just what would happen when certain techniques are used.

Personally, I'm going to do my best to avoid RP fights at all costs until there is some form of DnD system in place where people's skill level cannot be lied about and the combat mechanics are all roles based on that skill. Until then, we will have these text walls faffing about on what you can and cannot do in a fight/ what you should and should not do. It gets more convoluted every time I read about it.

These experts say we're all wrong anyway:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/Swordfighting-Not.html#.U5DFuIm9Kc0

I have an entire system fleshed out with exactly one item missing and one thing being a problem: Determining initial skill levels across Alteran playerbase and affording a mechanism for skill advancement.

Typically these systems are for groups of 4-6 people for which Experiance can be doled out. This isn't possible.

And I know if I release a system I'll have dozens of dozens of people come to me and claiming a skill level that I'd then have to investigate, and am thus stymied.

 

[Naelwyn]

But... there's no point. Classical rapier technique has you leaning into thrusts, etc - it's not a weapon designed to be used in the offhand. What are you going to do, thrust both at once? Then you don't get any of the advantages to body positioning.

I mean, you can dual weild fencing sabres, because you can slash, parry, etc.

But an offhand rapier (Or Foil, Epee, etc.) is a narrow, thin, piercing instrument.