A Political Map of the Northern Kingdoms

[Valonyx]

Folksmight, as if you would check in one of our House Threads. @Bean/Benijim
Himself said it was a part of Marr. Nonetheless his char is still a member of Marr and it's our responsibility to ensure the best for him and his region.

Also during the treaty, I was ic trying to tell you that couldn't be done because it was his private property, also I said I couldn't because it was his region and I just can't give it up like that.

My Ignis, tybalt are you serious, how many times do I need to repeat i dont WANT regions! I entirely respect OOC owners that worked hard and built stuff, and I have no wish to touch that!
But yes, if you claim it to be part of Marr In RP, then yes, in RP i should be able to use it for diplomacy. If it doesn't work like that, then can someone please explain to me how people can say they have stuff RP but then when you try to do something out of it, they retract and say its not there so everything you try to do is void?

The way i see it, either Folksmight exists in RP and as a neighbooring realm I have the legitimate right to demand it in RP, since I do trust invisible powers do not prevent legitimate roleplay actions from being made, or either it does not exist in RP, like some seem to be stating, and it can't be used or claimed to be existing. this looks simple to me, at least.

and to everyone that is saying we should drop this? No, I don't think we should. This is important to me, and it needs to be solved, of course with civil manners!

 

[Patrickdxs]

My Ignis, tybalt are you serious, how many times do I need to repeat i dont WANT regions! I entirely respect OOC owners that worked hard and built stuff, and I have no wish to touch that!
But yes, if you claim it to be part of Marr In RP, then yes, in RP i should be able to use it for diplomacy. If it doesn't work like that, then can someone please explain to me how people can say they have stuff RP but then when you try to do something out of it, they retract and say its not there so everything you try to do is void?

The way i see it, either Folksmight exists in RP and as a neighbooring realm I have the legitimate right to demand it in RP, since I do trust invisible powers do not prevent legitimate roleplay actions from being made, or either it does not exist in RP, like some seem to be stating, and it can't be used or claimed to be existing. this looks simple to me, at least.

and to everyone that is saying we should drop this? No, I don't think we should. This is important to me, and it needs to be solved, of course with civil manners!

Well if you want a civil discussion I will give you one, I am not saying this out of anger or dislike, but here is my educated reasoning on the matter at hand. (I'd appreciate if any anger is diverted into reasonable civil discussion, thank you):

Considering your already rocky relations with Azerport, I don't think you should be claiming anything owned by Marr or your Vassals in the first place. There is only one map you know, and you shouldn't just tell your vassals "Oh that land you wanted to point out is yours? Nope. Mine now." On a giant OOC map that tells people who completely /owns/ what region. If you want me to be specific with some examples why not to, here:

lets say someone worships, oh, I don't know... Theodra. Who also wants to hang out in Queen's Port, or any number of your vassals territory, when they check the territory thread, and see that giant Lavoyard mark highlighting the town, they are going to not RP there, because they think your going to bust in, on your supposed territory and burn them for being "heretics". Easiest way to explain this, you putting a claim through a OOC map on the forums is limiting the role-play people can have in the areas you claim, due to your extreme actions in RP towards people who don't follow your every word.

It is no coincidence that the longest running and largest kingdoms/claims are all based on freedom, rather than control and order. It is because of the freedom that people Role-Play there, they don't have to research all the rules you have set up, they don't have to immerse themselves with the dozens of political intricacies most kingdoms have like Haven, it's simple, easy, and has low risk for being killed in RP. Not to mention that the more strict and oppressive a kingdom is towards a large percent of a population, the higher chance for a revolution because of the oppressed people having enough of it. Burning every worshiper of a god that isn't one of the three you pick is not only very oppressive, but also oppressive to a large percentage of citizens.

Finally, the Azerport thing. Let's face it, Marr does not and the way it's going will never be owned, Vassals, or truly in any form subjugated by OR related to Haven and Layovard, because they are a city dedicated to Rahas, the god who HATES ignis... It's just not going to happen.

 

[Patrickdxs]

@Markisbeest Would you like to explain what you disagree with, and maybe we can come to a logical agreement? I am afterall only giving a logical argument that was asked for. I hate unexplained ratings.

 

[Markisbeest]

I disagree completely.
I think the stubborn attitude of "I claim this as mine, and therefor I think all others should retract their claims" is a perfect way of playing a feudal based kingdom, like Lavoyard's thingy.
It's how things worked in medieval times and frankly I think it's really good rp. However nothing's currently forcing Marr to retract their claim, except the threat of full open war, which they seem willing to accept.
As such, it is a contested area, and generally the lower feudal lords of the region have a preference and allow or hinder the troops of the nations claiming it by granting access. That won't stop anyone from claiming it as theirs and considering themselves lords over the area, but it does stop people from actually governing it.

Your argument is that it will hinder free rp and will likely turn people away from Lavoyard. I think those people that are of that opinion are bad roleplayers and cannot deal with the reality of the current roleplay situation. It is as it is, all due to legitimate roleplay reasons as far as I'm aware. Therefore you should accept the consequences of the powerhungry Arthorius wanting more land and his rule with an iron fist. He is completely in his role to try and claim Marr territory as his own.

As for the solving of this dispute.
He has to either accept the disputed situation as it is currently, with no benefits for either side, try and change Marr's opinion on the matter and have them retract their claim (likely by war), or retract his own claim.

As for further things you said:
I think Valonyx can just claim the land of his vassals as much as he wants, they however own the territories and are completely free to plot against him or revolt.
Of course laws in the Lavoyard kingdom will apply to his vassals, they are autonomous governments, but they answer to him all the same. How well these laws are followed is decided by how strict valonyx in rp is towards his vassals and how strictly these vassals wish to apply these laws to their subjects.
I think if Tybalt is a true and fair roleplayer that he is open for becoming a vassal to Lavoyard should rp force him to do so. Marr is however a considerable force, and is unlikely to get steamrolled by anyone, not even Lavoyard, so a lot of rp before that happens.

 

[Lannis]

actions in RP

I do believe this bit sums it up quite nicely. As far as I'm concerned, I see nothing wrong with trying to lay claim to a non-peaceful region in RP. Mind, the owner still has all rights to the region itself, and via applying for a region classification can decide what type of RP goes on. Barring that, IC land disputes should be addressed IC, and perhaps t'would be best to leave them unclaimed or mark them as disputed regions until an IC resolution is found.

Considering your already rocky relations with Azerport, I don't think you should be claiming anything owned by Marr or your Vassals in the first place. There is only one map you know, and you shouldn't just tell your vassals "Oh that land you wanted to point out is yours? Nope. Mine now." On a giant OOC map that tells people who completely /owns/ what region. If you want me to be specific with some examples why not to, here:

lets say someone worships, oh, I don't know... Theodra. Who also wants to hang out in Queen's Port, or any number of your vassals territory, when they check the territory thread, and see that giant Lavoyard mark highlighting the town, they are going to not RP there, because they think your going to bust in, on your supposed territory and burn them for being "heretics". Easiest way to explain this, you putting a claim through a OOC map on the forums is limiting the role-play people can have in the areas you claim, due to your extreme actions in RP towards people who don't follow your every word.

Again, this falls under the realm of in-character consideration rather than out-of-character. Lavoyard upholds their religion IC, and for a character that holds beliefs contrary to theirs venturing into territory that Lavoyard exerts their influence over wouldn't be the wisest thing for the character to do. "RP freedom" means that the player has the right to make whatever choices they wish about his or her character, it doesn't pertain to freedom from consequences that may arise as a result of said choices.

It is no coincidence that the longest running and largest kingdoms/claims are all based on freedom, rather than control and order. It is because of the freedom that people Role-Play there, they don't have to research all the rules you have set up, they don't have to immerse themselves with the dozens of political intricacies most kingdoms have like Haven, it's simple, easy, and has low risk for being killed in RP. Not to mention that the more strict and oppressive a kingdom is towards a large percent of a population, the higher chance for a revolution because of the oppressed people having enough of it. Burning every worshiper of a god that isn't one of the three you pick is not only very oppressive, but also oppressive to a large percentage of citizens.

Finally, the Azerport thing. Let's face it, Marr does not and the way it's going will never be owned, Vassals, or truly in any form subjugated by OR related to Haven and Layovard, because they are a city dedicated to Rahas, the god who HATES ignis... It's just not going to happen.

And if we're to continue a civil discussion, I ask that we keep it on the topic of land claims, as is the purpose of the thread.~ Should both parties wish it, kindly discuss opinions and political business through other channels.

 

[Tybalt]

My Ignis, tybalt are you serious, how many times do I need to repeat i dont WANT regions! I entirely respect OOC owners that worked hard and built stuff, and I have no wish to touch that!
But yes, if you claim it to be part of Marr In RP, then yes, in RP i should be able to use it for diplomacy. If it doesn't work like that, then can someone please explain to me how people can say they have stuff RP but then when you try to do something out of it, they retract and say its not there so everything you try to do is void?

The way i see it, either Folksmight exists in RP and as a neighbooring realm I have the legitimate right to demand it in RP, since I do trust invisible powers do not prevent legitimate roleplay actions from being made, or either it does not exist in RP, like some seem to be stating, and it can't be used or claimed to be existing. this looks simple to me, at least.

and to everyone that is saying we should drop this? No, I don't think we should. This is important to me, and it needs to be solved, of course with civil manners!

I never disagreed with this T-T
Gehh. Just..... I don't know anymore. I never have a problem with anyone claiming something is theirs ooc. Altho, my ic actions clearly is the otherwise... All I know is The OOC owner of the region has to give consent for whatever. Which is why I didn't wanna deal with Folksmight in a treaty but Howell I guess? I don't know why your upset bro :/.... Perhaps.... Idk..... I thaught I was being pretty dang civil bout this.

 

[Patrickdxs]

I do believe this bit sums it up quite nicely. As far as I'm concerned, I see nothing wrong with trying to lay claim to a non-peaceful region in RP. Mind, the owner still has all rights to the region itself, and via applying for a region classification can decide what type of RP goes on. Barring that, IC land disputes should be addressed IC, and perhaps t'would be best to leave them unclaimed or mark them as disputed regions until an IC resolution is found.

The entire reasoning I posted a response was to point out what you did in a matter of one sentence, I was trying to say what Lannis has kindly pointed out here: "That it would be best to leave the land unclaimed or mark them as disputed regions" not trying to insult or otherwise say "RP freedom is this and we should all follow it.". I was just listing examples, that in all honesty, are /not/ arguments that are my own but reasonings as to how other people might act out and have acted out /because/ of the claim. To be more specific, so that way people don't misunderstand the meaning of my (to be fair, poorly worded) reasoning again, I will be clear.

I do not think that Val is in the wrong for RPly claiming the land, or that he should not enforce his Role-Play consequences and or actions on people within those lands he has marked out, but that posting this claim on this thread as non-contested territory could be disruptive for other people.

Would anyone else like to read this, then tell me why you think my reasonings are wrong? I'm understand most have probably understood (My again, poorly worded) statement as arguments against Val for RPly claiming that land, so I understand the disagrees in that form, but if you still think the reasoning is entirely off after this clarification, please do explain what your problem with my reasoning is.
@Gregor
@BarbarianGaming
@Markisbeest

(If you'd like a long, full fledged response about any post ya make, I will be taking that discussion to the Conversations Area, since I have a bunch ready and it'd be a bit long for a post )

 

[Valonyx]

I never disagreed with this T-T
Gehh. Just..... I don't know anymore. I never have a problem with anyone claiming something is theirs ooc. Altho, my ic actions clearly is the otherwise... All I know is The OOC owner of the region has to give consent for whatever. Which is why I didn't wanna deal with Folksmight in a treaty but Howell I guess? I don't know why your upset bro :/.... Perhaps.... Idk..... I thaught I was being pretty dang civil bout this.

Yes, the OOC owner has to give consent for actual modifications done to the region. I do not and will never touch anyone's regions, and so should not any lords!

 

[Valonyx]

stuff

Oh, but Patrick, please mind it, that map was a prototype. As Hero said, a new one will be made, according to the intel he did not know about regions existing without the RP-claimed frontiers.

 

[Patrickdxs]

Oh, but Patrick, please mind it, that map was a prototype. As Hero said, a new one will be made, according to the intel he did not know about regions existing without the RP-claimed frontiers.

Alright, I will indeed keep that in mind. Good luck with the map.

 

[Tybalt]

So I wanted to update this. And I was wondering what program you or anyone who helped you used?
@mineturtletrap

 

[Archbishop]

I'd be curious to see this updated, considering many people have no idea anymore what some kingdoms, empires, noble house regions even look like anymore. I can, of course, help with House Stirling and Tambry.

 

[Baron]

As I understand:

- Avanor is stable
- Engem is silent, but not gone
- Golden Bay is Golden Bye
- Havarda, nothing to report
- Hierax is stable
- Ironside is gone
- Lydel has been subsumed into Tambry
- Marr is a part of Turia, along with the Order
- Pirates are stable
- Renatus is stable
- Saeradan is stable
- Senatoor is extinct
- Silverian is silent
- Vera Vigi/Polvur has expanded onto the mainland and controls two new territories
- Vigil's Rest is stable
- Server builds have been reduced

 

[Immerael]

Yup though preferably with less colors. Perhaps the map itself could be made black and white? There's a lot going on it right now.

Though isn't Marr sort of at odds with the remains of Lavo within Turia and hence there are two major competing factions, that probably deserve their separate markers. Unless some major RP happened to quell that in the past couple days I'm not aware of.

 

[dogbew]

I believe the map would look something like this:

Spoiler

jokes (more or less)

 

[Baron]

Ah, yes, the faction with no ingame active players, the rare forum post, and a completely empty city, controlling half a continent.

 

[dogbew]

Ah, yes, the faction with no ingame active players, the rare forum post, and a completely empty city, controlling half a continent.

Humor is difficult

 

[Tybalt]

Yup though preferably with less colors. Perhaps the map itself could be made black and white? There's a lot going on it right now.

Though isn't Marr sort of at odds with the remains of Lavo within Turia and hence there are two major competing factions, that probably deserve their separate markers. Unless some major RP happened to quell that in the past couple days I'm not aware of.

There is right now four factions within Turia, that has sided into two major political factions within the empire.

The current political faction of Lavoyard and the Black banners make up the New House Arnold.

And there is House Marr, and it's vassals. The actual Noble bloodline Family, Lavoyard. And Galdors House, House Braedor.

But yea, each House of the Empire should have their own borders listed aswell. Because territory ownership in Turia ocasionally changes aswell

 

[pyrocide]

What I'd absolutely love to see is a map showing the timeline of expansions/reductions of regions, and then have it color-coded to show which expansions/reductions were because of IC or OOC reasons.

 

[Tybalt]

Because this map was made About August a year ago