An Interesting Problem

[krazy4golf]

Oh Mich

 

[Ella]

Why did you kill it!?

 

[krazy4golf]

FONT MAGIC

 

[Ella]

*leaves the thread* no. just- no.

 

[Rextoret]

*sigh*

Pyro's probably gonna be pissed when he sees what happened to the thread.

 

[Ella]

I'm sowwy..

 

[sneaky_ninja_66]

After the major and almost fatal derailing of the thread, I have some comments and a question (or two).

The leaderboard idea would really be good to have. If indeed this is implemented, for all players to easily access the leaderboard, there should be a forum link to it (for those who actually use the forums) AND an in-game version - whether it be a plugin that simply lists the official organizations and their points, or some kind of physical board that players can go and look at in-game. Yet if this is used, there comes a problem. Who will monitor these organizations to award the points? And what's keeping said groups from just making up stuff out of the blue to get more points?

Just a side comment on a topic somewhat relating to the original issue, perhaps there really should be an actual format for creating an organization, as mentioned before (by Rex, I believe). It certainly would weed out the pointless groups that claim to be fearless and all-powerful. Also, there should be no "copycat" groups - unless given a good reason. I.E., only 1 Thieves Guild, only 1 Inquisition, etc. But what defines a good reason? Well, let's say there's another group of thieves that want to make a guild/organization. A good reason for them would be to create more RP instances with the Thieves Guild in the form of competition and possibly guild-to-guild conflict. Of course, if the group doesn't actually go through with what they say, then their official group status should be pulled.

Just some food for thoughts.

 

[Rextoret]

I'm sure they'll appoint a Staff member to watch over the leaderboards. I'm also sure that person will make sure that there is no foul play. They'll also need someone to approve the organization applications. Perhaps they could get a new staff member for that/ Give a normal member the rights to approve them. *Cough cough*

But you made good points. I'm sure Pyro will be thankful that you posted.

 

[Faelin]

First, this...

They are going to have to search through pages of gifs when they get back >.>

C'mon, guys... Are we all entirely incapable of knowing when to stop?

On a side note, I think that this idea of some sort of system of organisation's rights/rules by region and RP power can only be a good thing, and should help to promote more realistic, and therefore better, RP.

 

[King Oguk]

Oguk kills 'dem. 'Dem dey respect.

 

[Spark]

I go to sleep a 2 in the morning watching this thread, hoping for some kind of discussion. I wake up and scroll through 6 pages of gifs. This was meant to be an issue that needs fixing to improve roleplay but instead a few people were trying to come up with ideas and keep the thread on topic which then disappeared into the wave of spam.
Grow up.

 

[SobekRa]

And this is a situation where the staff should act and delete all the spamposts instead of participating in it *peers at Mich*

 

[Rextoret]

If it helps at all, I can go back and delete all my unnecessary posts.

 

[Spark]

I hope I'm on that list. I attempted to re-rail multiple times. I'd hate to be lumped into the group of children.

Just because you attempted to rerail doesn't mean you can spam the crap out of it....

 

[Rextoret]

Yes, I know. I offered to delete the posts, if you didn't notice. Would that help?

I was caught up in the moment and made a mistake by joining in. I'm truly sorry.

 

[Cubey]

I can't see this being an easy question to answer. As you said, people want their organisation or favourite organisation to be the most powerful. I think it would help if people were to separate their out of character feelings with their characters. Some people will become in-character friends with someone completely unrealistic such as a church member and a heretic, just because they are real life/OOC friends. The same goes for people OOC feelings. Sure you might think your character is not scared or intimidated by the guards(for example) but your character should be. This is just simple roleplay that a lot of people are lacking. I see demons being friendly and having a joke around in a pub with humans. Is that really the right thing to do? I highly doubt it.
Demon: Rawr, are you scared? tehe
Peasant: Nope, tag your it.
Demon: One sec I just need to rip off this guys head and eat his entrails.
Peasant: Sure thing I can wait.

This goes for guards too, you might think your character should be standing up to guards or assassins but should they really?

The same goes for organisations, I doubt there is a logical way to spread power but it is common sense really. say your character is a farmer, they are standing outside the Merry Mead and an assassin kills someone, that brings fear into the eyes of the bystander but would they then be scared of the assassins after that if they are innocent of all crimes and peaceful? Not really. But a high ranking noble who has screwed over a lot of other rich families to get where he is now would be, because he knows someone could want him dead.

A tramp sitting on a street corner wouldn't be scared of a group of bandits because he/she has nothing worth stealing so the bandits would most likely leave them alone. Whereas a nobleman in fine robes would run for his life as he knows they would likely mug him because his possessions are valuable and worth stealing.

well that's my thoughts on the situation..

I know I'm trying more nasty as Grief

 

[Spark]

I'm just going to put this here....

The problem for me as an Inquisitor was there was no real threat to anything we could do. Everyone who got captured would be released, as although the punishment should be death we can't kill them. Making hollow threats means respect is lost, so on it goes.

Hmm. Truly is an interesting problem. Perhaps if we strengthen a group's power in a certain area, but decrease/eliminate it elsewhere? The Silvercloaks would have immense power within the King's areas, but have nearly no footholds anywhere else? But that's just a idea, albeit a poor one.

In my opinion, the Bandits as a group seem almost non-existent. Do they have a stronghold somewhere? A town where Bandits collectively gather? If not, perhaps giving them somewhere that they are the law will make them more of a tangible threat.

In terms of power between groups, it's somewhat difficult to accomplish in Minecraft. Perhaps we could make some form of 'Group Format' card that each group is made to fill out? (The card might include cities where their presence is known, etc.) Perhaps that could give us a clearer look at the group's power in more simpler and easy to read terms than what we can gather from reactions in-game.

I can't see this being an easy question to answer. As you said, people want their organisation or favourite organisation to be the most powerful. I think it would help if people were to separate their out of character feelings with their characters. Some people will become in-character friends with someone completely unrealistic such as a church member and a heretic, just because they are real life/OOC friends. The same goes for people OOC feelings. Sure you might think your character is not scared or intimidated by the guards(for example) but your character should be. This is just simple roleplay that a lot of people are lacking. I see demons being friendly and having a joke around in a pub with humans. Is that really the right thing to do? I highly doubt it.
Demon: Rawr, are you scared? tehe
Peasant: Nope, tag your it.
Demon: One sec I just need to rip off this guys head and eat his entrails.
Peasant: Sure thing I can wait.

This goes for guards too, you might think your character should be standing up to guards or assassins but should they really?

The same goes for organisations, I doubt there is a logical way to spread power but it is common sense really. say your character is a farmer, they are standing outside the Merry Mead and an assassin kills someone, that brings fear into the eyes of the bystander but would they then be scared of the assassins after that if they are innocent of all crimes and peaceful? Not really. But a high ranking noble who has screwed over a lot of other rich families to get where he is now would be, because he knows someone could want him dead.

A tramp sitting on a street corner wouldn't be scared of a group of bandits because he/she has nothing worth stealing so the bandits would most likely leave them alone. Whereas a nobleman in fine robes would run for his life as he knows they would likely mug him because his possessions are valuable and worth stealing.

well that's my thoughts on the situation..

@jak
That's exactly what I mean. No one is actually afraid of any other organization, because as you said you are not allowed to follow through with any real punishment because you have to have that player's permission to even do it.

What do you think could be changed to fix that?

@Rex
I like that idea of regional power you've got going on. It does make a ton of sense that the Silvercloaks are most powerful in PS, but at the Cove they will have a hard time forcing their will on the Pirates. Perhaps something more can come from this angle.

@Seth
I think you can see why I so quickly deserted the notion of a strict ranking system. I understand where you're coming from, but like jak said, players don't feel like any of the groups actually have any power, so what's there to fear from attacking or disrespecting the Slivercloaks when you're a bandits? We can try to tell them to behave and be logical, but as you said that hasn't and probably won't work, unfortunately.


@Spark
I agree with your thoughts, but as Seth said, the server has tried to persuade the playerbase to act logically for their character, with little to no success. Is there some mechanical solution you can think of that might persuade those who seem to be ignoring the polite requests? Also, I totally agree about the acting how you should with demons, but I think that should also be tempered with how often demons appear. For the past month, every time I've gone to PS there's at least one demon there causing trouble. I really don't want all of my roleplays to be "fight/run from/be scared of the demon!" So recently I've been taking to ignoring them or walking away from roleplays that involve them. Lessen their visits and I'll be fine with correctly reacting to them, you know?

Well, I saw Tomahawk do something with a prisoner. He stuck them in a cage, gave them a knife and told them that was the only way out, that they would be given food and kept alive. If you commit suicide then you are not revived... So they would either have to rp in a cell the whole time, escape with help or make a new character.

I liked it, it was inventive.

That's pretty awesome. Do you remember what happened to the prisoner?

New character.

Perhaps some kind of rating based on the nature of the organisation and their actions in RP? But instead of just fear there are multiple scales/measurements? I could go into more detail if your interested but if the concept is a no go I won't pain myself any longer by typing on this damn phone :
EDIT: I like that idea!

But then comes the *crycry* "I don't want RP forced on me" *crycry*

Nice.

Let's take that and look at it from a bigger perspective. Toma actually in that moment had power. He forced a punishment onto another player. Final Death; no return. Sadly it's one of the few things that can be leveraged as punishment. I don't think we can use fines, because people can simply refuse to pay them... jail time seems negatable since players could simply log out and do something else while imprisoned... homes and businesses can't be looted or confiscated... But forcing a permanent death is something that could be done.

Perhaps something could be expanded on from this.

I think the only fair way of doing it would be to set up some sort of ranking system where you would gain reputation and power by fulfilling certain roles. Roles that should already have power in the first place could be given it by commands, such as the Church and the Silvercloaks, but it still leaves the other organisations room to challenge this.

How viable it is in say a plugin or whatever I have no clue, and whether it works as intended is also another question entirely, i'm just trying to spew ideas.

I personally think the only way to fix this is to make the punishments more severe. I like what tomahawk did. And to make the punishment MUCH more severe. Perhaps if you're sentenced to death by the courts you can't be brought back to life.

-K9

Perhaps some kind of metaphorical leaderboard? Staff or team controlled who give non-bias opinions on an organisation based on their activities?

I don't really like the idea of permadeath, to me it seems a bit too harsh. I think that they should fine players with actual radiants, and make it so you can be in dept. So if I was fined with 5000 radiants, and I had 1000, I'd end up with -4000 and all money I earn from then is heading towards bringing it back to zero. Then again, I'm not good with this kind of stuff.

I don't think having them staff controlled would free them of bias, the staff have always been against admin controlled projects anyways. I'm thinking more along the lines of "Action gives X influence and X power" which would create a said leaderboard. This could then be used for reference by players who could then go "sheesh, the Silvercloaks have far more power and influence than me, I shouldn't mess with them..."

Hmmm... I'm seeing a lot of good ideas cropping up.

I'm feeling a kind of system where locations are ranked by their regional power perhaps by the owner of the city or the staff in case of a staff-run city like PS. This would be common knowledge, So that travelers to a city know who is in control and who to watch out for.

However, we need a way for the groups in power to actually have some form of power, and to that end it seems like a final death ability is needed, or at least some other way to deal out punishment. This may mean a weakening of the Sisterhood and the auto-allowance of player death perhaps, or staff-enforced radiant fines, or something else?

Keep going, this is some wonderful brainstorming.

I'm sorry I didn't mean staff controlled I meant like....a group to control the leaderboard as I doubt a plugin could do so. So when a group does X the team then decides how much X influence and X power gets for a specific action they perform. Does that sound viable?

*deep, cleansing breath*

Back onto topic. Group power and how to truly show it.

Perhaps more stringent group creation policies? We don't want a bunch of "Dragon Knights of insane power" wandering about. If we bottleneck the creation of new groups, we can focus on improving and fixing the current ones.

This.

A big issue with organisations currently is that they are similar to how a lot of bad CPs are, they are already fully developed to their peak and not built from the ground up. If we can help encourage people to start these organisations from the grass roots, perhaps that will increase the quality of the groups and weed out the bad ones.

*allowed

Anyway, slight re-rail...

It seems to me that, particularly with official groups involving enforcement of certain policies, we have a choice between harsher/more realistic consequences, resulting in improved reactions and responses in RP, with some complaints and rule-breakers, OR milder punishments/enforcements, resulting in people taking advantage of these groups in RP (and unrealistically so), with no complaints.

Personally, I'd prefer to have the first; better RP with some people getting it wrong rather than passable RP with a constant fault in the system.

Hmm...
Well, perhaps rather than ranking organisations, they could be divided according to purpose?
For example, official "enforcement" type organisations such as the Silvercloaks, the Kingsguard and the Inquisition might have different OOC rules and rights to "rebellion" types, that break or go against some sort of law or movement. Similarly there might be passive organisations, such as artisans, travelling entertainers, or crafting guilds that could fall under another catergory. Groups that are intended to reach a political or social goal (for example the Slayers and the Golden Crusade), or those directly affiliated with a noble House might have entirely different allowances entirely to keep everything fair.

Thoughts?

As to the conversation at hand, I believe punishments are out of the question. Perhaps maybe some form of reward or small advantage that can be gained ingame by being highly ranked on the organisations "leaderboard"

I used to hate it in school when the naughty kids used to be rewarded for acting like a normal human being, too much of a reward could lead to this.

On the other hand I'm still strongly for this leaderboard idea! It would give some kind of objective for an organisation that would encourage good RP.

I understand that, but we'd need some sort of incentive to get people on the right track and persuade those who oppose it that it isn't such a bad idea. Punishments are heavily opposed and would do more harm than good, and while rewards are far from perfect, I don't see another solution.

It could be different for each organisation. For example the guards could be measured in enforcement, where points are given when they make rational arrests, presecutions etc.
This would stop overpowered enforcement, such as ripping off limbs for stealing bread.
The bandits could be measured by "inserttermhere" for commiting acts such as mugging, raiding, etc
This would stop random attacks that are pointless to the organisation such as killing a random peasant.

Assassins could be measured by their ability to complete contracts or whatever they do nowadays.

The inquisition could be measure almost like the guards but for darknloods, demons, etc.


I also think the points need to a large unit so that smaller things can earn a few points like the inquisitors warning citizens about demon attacks, etc. Just to earn a few points.
So ridding a demon from PS could be 100 points and warning a group of people about an increase in demon attacks could be 6 points.
that's my idea.

So basically being rewarded by good roleplay within an organisation and sticking to their goals.

I think there's been a misconception as far as the whole "punishment" thing goes.

The example has been PS guards and people breaking the law, and in this specific case, the guard would gain tangible power by being able to punish people that break the law. Realize that this punishment is to a character, not a player. We need to distribute power evenly though, so that all groups effectively have power. The Pirates, for instance, could rob people that wander into the Cove, or kill them, or whatever as well. This gives the Pirates actual power. That's what this thread is about - fixing the issue which is that a lot of players simply ignore the "power" groups should realistically have.

In no way is this a player punishment to kill their character. It is simply a realistic deterrent to aid players in making more logical decisions. Right now, you can jump all over the roofs at PS, and if you don't want it, the guard there can do nothing to you. This is allowing players to make bad roleplaying decisions, simply in spite of the "rules" being issued. If the guard has actual power to affect the offending characters, then this will make players stop and think before doing something illogical.

Yes, I do think there can be positive benefits given to people for roleplaying logically, but I don't think that the negative reinforcement is a bad option either. After all, the players still have the option to commit the act or not, but now the groups in power have a way to actually use said power, rather than what happens currently, which is next to nothing.

After the major and almost fatal derailing of the thread, I have some comments and a question (or two).

The leaderboard idea would really be good to have. If indeed this is implemented, for all players to easily access the leaderboard, there should be a forum link to it (for those who actually use the forums) AND an in-game version - whether it be a plugin that simply lists the official organizations and their points, or some kind of physical board that players can go and look at in-game. Yet if this is used, there comes a problem. Who will monitor these organizations to award the points? And what's keeping said groups from just making up stuff out of the blue to get more points?

Just a side comment on a topic somewhat relating to the original issue, perhaps there really should be an actual format for creating an organization, as mentioned before (by Rex, I believe). It certainly would weed out the pointless groups that claim to be fearless and all-powerful. Also, there should be no "copycat" groups - unless given a good reason. I.E., only 1 Thieves Guild, only 1 Inquisition, etc. But what defines a good reason? Well, let's say there's another group of thieves that want to make a guild/organization. A good reason for them would be to create more RP instances with the Thieves Guild in the form of competition and possibly guild-to-guild conflict. Of course, if the group doesn't actually go through with what they say, then their official group status should be pulled.

Just some food for thoughts.

First, this...

C'mon, guys... Are we all entirely incapable of knowing when to stop?

On a side note, I think that this idea of some sort of system of organisation's rights/rules by region and RP power can only be a good thing, and should help to promote more realistic, and therefore better, RP.

[/quote]

 

[Spark]

I know I'm trying more nasty as Grief

I know but you're not the only demon anymore!

 

[Rextoret]

I have gone and deleted all my posts that served no purpose to further the point of the thread. (This also dropped my post and like counters by large amounts.) I'm very sorry for any problems I may have caused.

 

[Seth_Jenkins]

....I came back, was hoping to debate more on this and...well...
That escalated quickly...
Should I just never go to sleep when debating? I'm sort of lost in the off-topicness now...